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Thread: Better Cardio Better Fighter? | Starting Strength Radio Clips

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Arnold View Post
    Its just ingrained in the culture and its taking quite a while to reverse it.
    It would seem MMA and BJJ inherited both of the perhaps less than desirable attitudes toward strength versus cardio from both traditional Asian martial arts and good old fashioned wrasslin' as practiced in US high schools and colleges where cardio is king. Because grappling!

  2. #22
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    I could see a strong argument for endurance being better for “self defense” because you can run away better!

  3. #23
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    ''''5 min is not cardio'''.

    I turned off at that point. He fails to understand that at the end of the first round if you didn't finish the fight your up for another. And then another.

    I know SS is fighting against the moronic mantra of cardio but please don't fight mantra with mantra. We're all intelligent enough here SS to see through the bullshit out there so don't try and feed us more.

    Love the site.

  4. #24
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    You seem to think that all fighting is done in "rounds."

  5. #25
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    I watched a top karate-ka teach a master class at a local dojo yesterday, and it really hammered in just how important strength is for fighting. Forget about your thoughts about karate for a second, I think this makes sense independent of that.

    Because of the nature of the karate gi, you could plainly see the relative sizes of people’s builds. The master was trying to show not katas but how to get inside quickly, how to build power for an effective and controlled kick, how to rotate effectively to preserve momentum and deliver a fast and powerful strike, etc. this involved a lot of squatting down, transferring force through the back, etc. - things we all do regularly as part of barbell training.

    You could tell by watching that there was a pretty strong correlation between people’s muscle mass and their ability to use the techniques, independent of their understanding. For people who were undernourished, it didn’t matter what their belt rank was - they couldn’t position their bodies in space well enough to build power, maintain balance, or execute the strikes and kicks effectively. They couldn’t jump forward and get inside and they couldn’t bounce into a strike fast enough to use the energy from the previous movement. There was one guy who could do all of this fairly effectively, and when I asked about him it came out that he was a graduate of the Chinese athletic program - in other words, a natural athlete identified in elementary school.

    I imagine this translates to grappling just as well. It won’t matter what techniques you know and how many times you can string them together before you get winded if you lack the necessary strength to execute them properly.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiigelec View Post
    Yes in Brazilian and/or Gracie Jiu Jitsu both combatants are generally horizontal and the technique called a "sweep" is where the combatant on the bottom reverses the position and ends up on top. Like I said a plethora of youtube videos available detailing the techniques in both sport and self defense applications, if you are interested in learning about them.
    See now, this is why I use Japanese terminology to describe most particular things in martial arts. Like Latin in the pre-Vatican II Catholic church, it all meant the same thing with no confusion on what was being said or taught.

    As to being interested in your concept of "reversal", which you now seem to be using interchangeably with what you term a "sweep" to be, I know how to do both of those things already and in several ways. Now that you have at last explained yourself in a manner more easily understood at any rate. But if someone as the defender in a real world fight elect to maintain contact on the ground with your attacker, they are foolish. Beyond possibility of your attacker having friends to put the boots to you, keep in mind that a sizable percentage of men in the US carry folding knives that are quickly and easily opened with one hand that may not be controlled or seen. And that will end badly for someone determined to keep humping on their attacker when they could break contact and leave or do something else from an upright and more mobile position.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiigelec View Post
    Well I don't recall seeing any refs or judges, the winners never got any medals and usually the police showed up but maybe I'm just ????confused????
    So far, given your nebulous use of language and apparent grasp of concepts outside of sports, maybe you are confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Y View Post
    I watched a top karate-ka teach a master class at a local dojo yesterday, and it really hammered in just how important strength is for fighting. Forget about your thoughts about karate for a second, I think this makes sense independent of that.

    Because of the nature of the karate gi, you could plainly see the relative sizes of peopleÂ’s builds. The master was trying to show not katas but how to get inside quickly, how to build power for an effective and controlled kick, how to rotate effectively to preserve momentum and deliver a fast and powerful strike, etc. this involved a lot of squatting down, transferring force through the back, etc. - things we all do regularly as part of barbell training.

    You could tell by watching that there was a pretty strong correlation between peopleÂ’s muscle mass and their ability to use the techniques, independent of their understanding. For people who were undernourished, it didnÂ’t matter what their belt rank was - they couldnÂ’t position their bodies in space well enough to build power, maintain balance, or execute the strikes and kicks effectively. They couldnÂ’t jump forward and get inside and they couldnÂ’t bounce into a strike fast enough to use the energy from the previous movement. There was one guy who could do all of this fairly effectively, and when I asked about him it came out that he was a graduate of the Chinese athletic program - in other words, a natural athlete identified in elementary school.

    I imagine this translates to grappling just as well. It wonÂ’t matter what techniques you know and how many times you can string them together before you get winded if you lack the necessary strength to execute them properly.
    Finally, a really good post on this subject, transcending martial arts using both striking and other techniques. Just be careful of the use of the term "master." Some people get a real case of the ass over Eastern ooga-booga stuff like that. Not mentioning any specific names, mind you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soule View Post
    I could see a strong argument for endurance being better for “self defense” because you can run away better!
    Bad guys, especially bad guys with a lot of alcohol in them don't run fast, well, or very far. Often because their alcohol is expelled by projectile vomiting after the first few big gulps of air into their lungs as they tire. Chasing someone is over one way or the other in around 400 yards, no matter what movies and TV would have you believe.

    So cardio even there is more about a little long(ish) sprinting than some extended jogging.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Y View Post
    I watched a top karate-ka teach a master class at a local dojo yesterday, and it really hammered in just how important strength is for fighting. Forget about your thoughts about karate for a second, I think this makes sense independent of that.

    Because of the nature of the karate gi, you could plainly see the relative sizes of people’s builds. The master was trying to show not katas but how to get inside quickly, how to build power for an effective and controlled kick, how to rotate effectively to preserve momentum and deliver a fast and powerful strike, etc. this involved a lot of squatting down, transferring force through the back, etc. - things we all do regularly as part of barbell training.

    You could tell by watching that there was a pretty strong correlation between people’s muscle mass and their ability to use the techniques, independent of their understanding. For people who were undernourished, it didn’t matter what their belt rank was - they couldn’t position their bodies in space well enough to build power, maintain balance, or execute the strikes and kicks effectively. They couldn’t jump forward and get inside and they couldn’t bounce into a strike fast enough to use the energy from the previous movement. There was one guy who could do all of this fairly effectively, and when I asked about him it came out that he was a graduate of the Chinese athletic program - in other words, a natural athlete identified in elementary school.

    I imagine this translates to grappling just as well. It won’t matter what techniques you know and how many times you can string them together before you get winded if you lack the necessary strength to execute them properly.

    It seems you know that 99.999% of Karate is stupid and doesn't work. Most of us on here that do BJJ and Judo recognize the need for strength. That's why we are here. By the same token, cardio is huge in both sports so we need both. This is why I keep asking questions and reading the forum and the books.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark E. Hurling View Post
    It would seem MMA and BJJ inherited both of the perhaps less than desirable attitudes toward strength versus cardio from both traditional Asian martial arts and good old fashioned wrasslin' as practiced in US high schools and colleges where cardio is king. Because grappling!
    Also boxing. Isn't their training still excessive amounts of ab work, jump rope, bodyweight stuff and running - aside from the technique stuff?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soule View Post
    I think what coach rip and delgadillo are explaining is that the conditioning a fighter needs is trained on the mats. Time in the gym is best spent with the barbell.
    This is exactly right. I don't get why every conversation about fighting has to turn into a this vs. that argument. In the podcast we're talking about fighting - regardless of circumstances. The reason sport fighting takes longer than fighting fighting is because there are rules that limit who can fight who and what isn't allowed. I contend and have always contended that self defense should be trained like MMA most of the time, so the distinction doesn't matter to me.

    In both instances and in all sports/human activity, strength is better and a significant amount of time and effort should be spent on the acquisition of strength since it will positively affect ALL OTHER ASPECTS OF PERFORMANCE. Conditioning for fighting or any other sport/human activity occurs when you do that activity at a sufficient level to induce the specific endurance adaptation that you need.

    Jogging down the road or doing battle ropes is insufficient to create the "cardio" needed to do anything other than those two activities in a trained individual. So you will acquire your "cardio" on the mat or on the field. And the stress you put on your cardiorespiratory system will be a greater stress because you're stronger and you can work at a higher intensity for any given task. There's context missing in this clip that's there if you listen to the whole episode, but the cardio vs strength debate is just ridiculous. There is no debate.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Arnold View Post
    Also boxing. Isn't their training still excessive amounts of ab work, jump rope, bodyweight stuff and running - aside from the technique stuff?
    I would guess so from what little I have seen and paid attention to their training methods. But lack direct experience in doing. All seem to be stuck in another century. Like maybe the 18th.

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