starting strength gym
Page 7 of 11 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 105

Thread: More Harder to Kill Evidence

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    1,366

    Default

    • starting strength seminar april 2024
    • starting strength seminar jume 2024
    • starting strength seminar august 2024
    Quote Originally Posted by stef View Post
    Learning not to get hurt in a context where you know you're going to be interacting physically, where your balance and mass are going to be challenged, is far removed from a context where you aren't expecting to fall or situations where there isn't time to react. Cats don't always land on their feet, despite what you've heard repeated all your life. And none of us is kitteh.

    Reacting to losing balance is a reflex. You learn something about landing by falling, but people have a range of physical abilities and abilities to learn. Those will poor general physical ability - slower reaction times, uncoordinated etc - are at a disadvantage. Those are physically inactive are at a disadvantage. Those who weren't physically active during development - when you're growing and developing patterns of movement and automatic patterns of movement that will follow you the rest of your life - are at an enormous disadvantage.

    Push that whole curve well to the left and you have old people. People with already deeply ingrained movement patterns, who are far less able to learn, who are slower, weaker, more brittle, less flexible, who carry a lifetime of accumulated injuries, and most importantly - who are unable to afford the risk of practice - real practice, real falling, not contrived situations - aren't good candidates to start learning lessons that they missed in childhood.

    In contrast, getting stronger, more flexible, and developing balance are safe and effective under the bar. Minimal risk, high reward kills the opposite (even if pushing the elderly out on the ice seems to resonate with the DNA of some here).
    Quote Originally Posted by markus1 View Post
    Stef, that first paragraph is true but only to a point. Training is contrived. Thats the very nature of it. And yes training undertaken later in life will not invoke the same response and benefit as in youth but if movement patterns are so ingrained as you say then one cannot possibly learn to squat under the bar in later life can they? See how backwards this argument becomes? Everyone can learn part of something no matter their age (within reason of course). The video was of a 48 year bloke remember. Hardley over the hill.

    I might just be biased after years of martial arts in my early life. Its stood me in amazing stead to avoid injury in my opinion only. I've had some nice falls both in sports and just in life including for example falling through a 4m ceiling not once but twice and somehow I always manage some reactionary cat like maneuver to lessen the damage. Friends will say it was just 'complete arse' but I suggest otherwise. I seriously must be on my last life by now. I touch wood writing this.

    I'm not even going to comment if strength training is better than learning to fall training because it's a pointless argument to have.

    Unfortunately, people are not commonly amenable to logic.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Broomfield, Colorado
    Posts
    252

    Default

    I have fallen twice since surgery. Once up the stairs. Thankfully it was not down the stairs! I had no time to think how I should fall. Every thing was just reaction.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Wichita Falls, TX
    Posts
    1,108

    Default

    It's absolutely likely that people who have grappling experience will land better than those who don't. I've experienced this, as have the others who've spent time getting tossed around. The thing is that this was a product of lots of hours on the mats doing things other than learning how to fall. I don't think that just teaching someone fall breaks and maybe even practicing them would be very helpful. It's not the fact that someone taught us how to fall break at some point, it's that we've spent time moving, being pushed/pulled, being yanked off balance, falling and recovering over and over again in a state of fatigue.

    So the idea of teaching someone how to fall doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But the idea that a reflexive reaction can't be ingrained through training/repetition isn't right either since it forms the basis of any effective performance at the edge of any person's ability. It's just that what's required to make that useable for an 80 year old person would be stupid. Using a barbell to get that person stronger provides for much better returns and much lower risk.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark E. Hurling View Post
    There are three types of falls:
    * Side falls, left or right.
    * Back falls.
    * Front falls.

    Each type of fall has a slightly different response taught. I outlined a multi-step process for teaching each of them in the last thread on this subject.

    There are a few other types of falls taught in martial arts, but they aren't that useful to the general population. The rolling forward fall is an example of such.
    “There are three types of falls...There are a few other types of falls...”

    Do you think a “front fall” is better for an 80 year old woman (keeping with the original parameters of this thread) than a “rolling fall?”

    Dude, give it up. Neither is gonna work for this use case. Best to really try not to fall.

    If you’re 80 and you do, best of luck.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Murphysboro, IL
    Posts
    726

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by johnst_nhb View Post
    “There are three types of falls...There are a few other types of falls...”

    Do you think a “front fall” is better for an 80 year old woman (keeping with the original parameters of this thread) than a “rolling fall?”

    Dude, give it up. Neither is gonna work for this use case. Best to really try not to fall.

    If you’re 80 and you do, best of luck.
    Or said another way, "Oh well, it's just fate." Let's not bother. They'll die soon enough anyway. See how taking the extreme case and spinning it works?

    I've said this already and it bears repeating. In the interest keeping the conversation polite, my original post in this thread didn't mention the elderly.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Ha.



    Let me get this straight: when you put on your gi and get on the mat with another Far Eastern Martial Arts guy, you don't know you're going to be thrown and are not prepared to be thrown, even when you're practicing throwing, being thrown, falling, etc.? Set, setting, context -- none of this places you in the "how to fall" zone more effectively than you are when you are walking through a train station in love with your phone and a text message from your girlfriend and slip in a puddle of puke? Do you really think that the circumstances of the fall are irrelevant to the outcome of the fall? That a Far Eastern Martial Arts Master can react differently in a tenth of a second while focused on something completely unrelated to falling than anybody else in these circumstances? And even if he (she?) can, how does this apply to your grandmother?

    Do you believe that Bruce Lee can punch you in the chest from a distance of one inch and three days later you suddenly die?
    No, you don't know when you are going to get thrown on the mat - if you did you would do something different so you wouldn't get thrown. I can tell you outside of the mat, I took a fall at home on concrete steps on stairs because I slipped. I had no idea I was going to fall. I can recount many stories from Judo and BJJ people who will tell you that learning how to fall did help them in falling on and off the mat.

    Again, as I said before, you can learn how to fall, it is muscle memory, and it can and does work both on and off the mat - this was the point I was refuting as the idea was this could not be learned and would not apply to situations on and off the mat. This idea is simply wrong.

    And, once again, as I said, for an old person who is untrained in anything, I think getting stronger would be better than learning how to fall just simply for the very basic activities of daily living, i.e., getting out of a chair which I see old people struggle with sometimes.

    Finally, Bruce Lee is non-sense and so is every other martial art except a few - BJJ, Judo, Wrestling (i know not a martial art), sambo, etc.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    53,562

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by novicejay View Post
    Finally, Bruce Lee is non-sense and so is every other martial art except a few - BJJ, Judo, Wrestling (i know not a martial art), sambo, etc.
    NOW you've done it...

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    1,366

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by novicejay View Post
    No, you don't know when you are going to get thrown on the mat - if you did you would do something different so you wouldn't get thrown. I can tell you outside of the mat, I took a fall at home on concrete steps on stairs because I slipped. I had no idea I was going to fall. I can recount many stories from Judo and BJJ people who will tell you that learning how to fall did help them in falling on and off the mat.
    Tell me exactly what martial arts fall technique protected you on that fall down the stairs, how it was different from what a person would normally do and how you think it may have improved your outcome.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark E. Hurling View Post
    Or said another way, "Oh well, it's just fate." Let's not bother. They'll die soon enough anyway. See how taking the extreme case and spinning it works?

    I've said this already and it bears repeating. In the interest keeping the conversation polite, my original post in this thread didn't mention the elderly.
    You're not getting my point. It doesn't matter if your original post mentioned elderly. The thread turned to that context and you continued to participate.

    It IS fate that a front fall for an elderly person will result in teeth meeting concrete. It is fate that a front roll for an elderly person will result in some unwanted breaking bones. Do miracles happen, yes.

    I am suggesting that time is far better spent helping them get stronger, helping them to (hopefully) prevent falling, as well as mitigating the risks of falling, period. Front falls and forward rolls ain't the way to do it.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Murphysboro, IL
    Posts
    726

    Default

    starting strength coach development program
    Quote Originally Posted by johnst_nhb View Post
    It IS fate that a front fall for an elderly person will result in teeth meeting concrete. It is fate that a front roll for an elderly person will result in some unwanted breaking bones. Do miracles happen, yes.
    I disagree that falls=broken bones for the elderly. The damage can be mitigated or prevented. The teeth and nose can be saved by simply turning the head, the way I learned in Judo and Jujitsu, and the way I teach it. If you read the link to my original post where I detailed how to fall, you will see that I didn't teach anything but the backfall. What's more, I specifically said that the rolling front fall is not useful for the general population.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnst_nhb View Post
    I am suggesting that time is far better spent helping them get stronger, helping them to (hopefully) prevent falling, as well as mitigating the risks of falling, period. Front falls and forward rolls ain't the way to do it.
    You appear to be reading selectively. I have repeatedly said in this thread and the linked thread that strength building is primary and the FIRST thing to pursue. And, once again, YOU are the only one talking about forward rolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by novicejay View Post
    Finally, Bruce Lee is non-sense and so is every other martial art except a few - BJJ, Judo, Wrestling (i know not a martial art), sambo, etc.
    Heh. What, no love for the atemi's?

Page 7 of 11 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •