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Thread: The morality of bombing civilians

  1. #41
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    • wichita falls texas march seminar date
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    Anyone else find is fascinating that the Nazis were all on meth throughout the entirety of WW2? Kinda explains a lot about Hitler..

  2. #42
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    Drug use for that purpose was a lot more wide spread than you'd think. .... because it worked.

    Given the choice between "possible long term side effects" and "no long term"... most of us would choose the option including the "long term".

    Wanting to win a war at any cost... historically is not that telling at all.

    If I were looking for a tell, I'd look at why someone started a war, and how they behaved while winning.

    Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, Roosevelt and Tojo all wanted to win the war. All gave their troops drugs. That does not make them equal. Or provide much of a tell.

    Hard choices are made in wars. It is easy to sit in judgement. The pressures leaders faced were staggering. This does not forgive all lapses in judgement.

    Hitler giving exhausted troops Meth to stay awake and stay alive does not rank with his most grievous transgressions.

    When American soldiers landed in North Africa in 1942, they were also operating under the influence of speed; half a million Benzedrine tablets were supplied on the orders of Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, according to PBS.

    So, I'm not seeing the moral equivalence any more than Americans and Germans used tanks. .... because they worked.

    Dead soldiers don't do you any good, not a deal for them either. So you give them tanks, air cover, any advantage you can... including drugs. The soldier's lives, and your country's fate hangs in the balance.
    That is the nature of war.
    War is hell.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soule View Post
    Anyone else find is fascinating that the Nazis were all on meth throughout the entirety of WW2? Kinda explains a lot about Hitler..
    American soldiers now are routinely on amphetamines.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rquantz View Post
    American soldiers now are routinely on amphetamines.
    As policy? How do you know this?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nockian View Post
    You might be shocked at just how large the anti-war fringe actually is. Even the pretender to the throne the magical grandad Corbyn has opined that we should have just made peace with Hitler.

    Yeah, but he's an anti-semitic twat who never saw a terrorist organisation he didn't love.


    As an aside, the biggest unexploded WW2 "bomb" in the UK, is actually a US ammo ship: SS Richard Montgomery - Wikipedia

    "Around 1,400 tonnes (1,500 short tons) of explosives remain on board"...

    "According to a BBC news report in 1970,[12] it was determined that if the wreck of Richard Montgomery exploded, it would throw a 1,000-foot-wide (300 m) column of water and debris nearly 10,000 feet (3,000 m) into the air and generate a wave 16 feet (5 m) high. Almost every window in Sheerness (pop. circa 20,000) would be broken and buildings would be damaged by the blast."

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommanderFun View Post
    I think you're not taking into account how much of a "to the bitter end" culture there was pervasive in Japan and especially their military at the time. There were guys out in the wilderness years later who thought the war was still on, and continued as though it was, refusing to actually stand down until people dug up their old commanding officers to tell them to their face the war was over. I also suspect Russia anticipated coming into competition with the US after the war as much as the US did. They probably would not have been willing to just ease our burden in invading Japan to do all the heavy fighting while the Pacific fleet got to sit back and blockade.
    “Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.” — United States Strategic Bombing Survey Summary Report (Pacific War)

    If you’re interested in the justification for that conclusion, the report is available online.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    As policy? How do you know this?
    I think this is relatively common knowledge to anyone who has talked to military personnel deployed to the Middle East in the last 20 years, particularly the Special Ops guys. They are supplied nearly ad infinitum by military docs, with little in the way of regulation or serious question-asking. That it is not "policy" is not an important distinction.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by rquantz View Post
    American soldiers now are routinely on amphetamines.
    I have no doubt that many of the team guys are on a lot of performance enhancing substances, but I don’t believe this stuff is approved by command and distributed to all soldiers.

  9. #49
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    For those of you interested in the numbers and effects, the contemporary US Strategic Bombing Surveys covers both the European & Pacific Theaters. It's a long slog of a read—perhaps it's better to do the ol' college paper survey - Intro, Conclusion, sections of interest—but if you are looking for insight into the morality of the bombing, you won't find it here.

    The United States Bombing Surveys, (European War) (Pacific War).

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by gadders View Post
    Yeah, but he's an anti-semitic twat who never saw a terrorist organisation he didn't love.


    As an aside, the biggest unexploded WW2 "bomb" in the UK, is actually a US ammo ship: SS Richard Montgomery - Wikipedia

    "Around 1,400 tonnes (1,500 short tons) of explosives remain on board"...

    "According to a BBC news report in 1970,[12] it was determined that if the wreck of Richard Montgomery exploded, it would throw a 1,000-foot-wide (300 m) column of water and debris nearly 10,000 feet (3,000 m) into the air and generate a wave 16 feet (5 m) high. Almost every window in Sheerness (pop. circa 20,000) would be broken and buildings would be damaged by the blast."
    It's one of those long trudges to Anti Semetic.
    All bankers, All Israel....... At one time the Labour Party was pro-Israel when they were seen to be dirt poor and weak. After Israel showed themselves capable of defending themselves and growing their economy, the Labour Party had to find other dirt poor, weak nations to champion like Palestine, Southern Ireland, Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, Chile and so on. Corbyn isn't really anti-semetic, he just champions failed states with dictators and poverty over any state that's rich and powerful. He sees the rich and strong as oppressors and therefore-in his retarded brain-terrorists are freedom fighters.

    Yeah, but......climate change is a much bigger threat to sheerness than that ship and we only have 12 years, or is that eleven now ;-)

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