Why not starting strength and "clean keto" combined ? Why not starting strength and "clean keto" combined ? - Page 3

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Thread: Why not starting strength and "clean keto" combined ?

  1. #21
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    • wichita falls texas june seminar date
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    Here is an article from the ultimate "Bro Gods", the navy seals.

    https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hs...et-navy-seals/

    Now, I know that you shouldn't believe everything you read but these guys really do need to be fed a good bona-fida source of energy for their endeavours.

    To summarize, look in to creating a "keto starting strength" programme for a subset of your clientele. You have the right feedback structure to perfect the keto advice back from your coaches. Keto needs tweaking, just like starting strength.

    You never know, if the Navy Seals pick it up, you could be in for a big uptake for keto and strength knowledge combined.

  2. #22
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    In the early to mid 2000s, there were people who were dissatisfied with the whole Paleo/Primal thing, finding that it simply didn't work as touted. Lots of people started digging, experimenting, and hacking themselves to try and facilitate energy for training, heal digestive and metabolic problems, and simply get on with life. This was at the cusp of the whole craze about probiotics/prebiotics and the so-called "gut biome" which is all the rage these days. Out of this period came some good independent writing and research outside of The Cathedral.

    Richard Nikoley and his readers have done yeoman's work on this, with a collection of articles/posts here:

    Leaving The Inuit Behind: Hormesis For The Rest Of Us

    The long and short of it: the structure of the diet, belied by cultural practices, prohibited ketosis in the Inuit population. They consumed ample carbohydrates, and starchy ones at that from various sources, in addition to a high protein, but not excessively high fat diet. The Masai, another indigenous culture often touted as a model for paleo/primal eating, didn't meet the standard either.

  3. #23
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    Reversing insulin resistance is not reversing diabetes. Diabetes is a one-way street.

  4. #24
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    (1) There is nothing cut and paste about this.

    (2) Paleo and Keto are two completely separate things. Paleo includes fruits and other carbs and keto keeps carbs firmly below 30 odd grams per day. One moves the body in to a "fat for fuel" mode and reduces glycolytic conditions enormously and the other doesn't. Keto counts only carbs. The satiating effects do the rest to keep a lid on excessive calorie intake.

    (3) I am trying to raise a serious point of feedback here. Mark has mentioned that some clients can complain of; excessive bodyweight increase Or in the case of a podcast in 2019, where a diabetic 25 year-old lady walked out after two weeks of training even though blood sugars were reduced drastically. This is key. People who Do NOT train with weights or barbells will find it hard to cope with high glycolitic training sessions to reduce their sugars. It may be the case that a point is proven, but it doesn't mean that it is the most effective approach when a client walks out the door. The addition of keto would remove the high glycolytic conditions in the first place. A person can then concentrate on form strength gains. Refer to the recent US diabetic association CEO's announcement that they are on a low-carb diet. Let me repeat, the CEO has admitted they are living a low-carb lifestyle!! American Diabetes Association CEO manages her diabetes with a low-carb diet.

    (4) A different approach for a subset of people can be seen as a step forward, an acknowledgement that new approaches can occur and they can be complementary of existing methods. The next version in an already great set of principles. Refer to Socrates' scientific method.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by flathead View Post
    To summarise, I have a set of key theories that govern my health. I currently trust the following sources;
    (a) Strength adaptation/linear progression/"healing based on targeted damaging of tissues" is currently "Starting Strength".
    (b) Autophagy, keto and fasting is from "Diet Doctor".
    (c) Gut Microbiome is from "gutmicrobiotafor health.com".
    Do these sources tell you which studies are "good" and which are "crap"? Do they always seem to find that studies that support their beliefs are the good ones and the others are crap?

    Are they selling diet or workout plans, or supplements that people consuming their information should purchase in order to "do it right"?

    Are they supported by food or supplement companies who stand to profit if people follow their recommendations?

    Do they point to isolated cases of proven medical benefit (e.g. ketogenic diet for certain types of epilepsy) and then state or imply that other conditions, or even people without diagnosed illness, would therefore benefit from the same thing, despite a complete lack of evidence?

    Could it be that the sources of medical information you find on the internet are subject to the same market forces and ulterior motives as the "shills" you see in the medical establishment, except that the internet experts are unfettered by FDA regulation/inspection and medical board oversight and malpractice liability concerns?

    You're right to be skeptical, but don't assume that anti-establishment is automatically right, just because the establishment is flawed. And don't turn the skepticism off just because it feels good to do so.

  6. #26
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    He says he understands that professional research is not science but then he cites more professional research. Was he present for some of this data collection?

  7. #27
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    I have been in ketosis before during training, a deployment, and recently during some brief periods of intermittent fasting. There is no way to split hairs on the point that the metabolic state associated with starvation cannot support the energy and nutrient requirements to maintain a metabolic state to support hypertrophy of non-adipose tissues in the body.

    You can't sufficiently train on keto in a way that allows for continuous, iterative increases in performance. The absolute best you can hope for, through difficult work while on caloric and nutrient deficit, is to lose as little as possible.

    If you still want to hold onto the tail of the keto tiger... then go train your ass off on keto. Maybe personal experience will convince you that the Grand Keto Diet works in theory -- but not in fact. Kind of like communism, really...

  8. #28
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    (1) Reversing diabetes, essentially means that you are back to a normal hba1c blood sugar level with zero medication. I am right at the top level of normal now. I know that I have done something significant because my kidney, liver, blood pressure and cholesterol levels have also reversed back to normal levels after 7 years of abnormality. This reveals the level of damage sustained blood sugars (controlled relatively well by medication) does to the body. The 2017 Newcastle study showed that body fat loss (which significantly disrupts the body when it is stored in excess for diabetics) reduces blood sugars and is normally the biggest factor for reducing sugars. They achieved this by putting people on an 800 calorie a day diet over 8 weeks. This is not very sustainable, hence, I went down another path with similar "diabetes reversing" results. The lessons were; keeping lean, staying low-carb/keto (75g to 30g), feeling satiated and increasing metabolism with strength gains, allows you to reverse it for the long term.

    The key point is..... what is the definition of reversing? Well if it means that my body reacts to my old fat levels and carb levels with normal blood sugars, then, it is unlikely that I will see those days again. However, this is a pure and simple hack that keeps muscle glycogen levels permanently low and ketones flowing around to substitute any loss in energy. This hacked state can only be achieved by people who are "fat adapted". This is key, if you aren't "fat adapted", your body struggles to merge the fuel sources
    (aka "keto-flu"). The Doctors who are specialising in keto (which are slowly growing and have painfully removed themselves from the medical insurance money merry-go-round) are gathering "on the ground" feedback on how to transition people across more seamlessly and quickly to a "fat adapted" state.

    (2) With reference to my sources. One of them is Mr Rippetoe, why, because the knowledge that I have gathered over the last 2 years of listening to a myriad of different health podcasts, books and articles says to me that he knows a thing or two. He is someone who; simplifies elements of high complexity, is willing to debate, is willing to put themselves on the line AND is able to defend themselves against many diverse and testing "mainstream arguments". This is the proper definition of transparency. From my profession, it is similar to a complex IT system being modelled and tested under typical loading conditions. Billions of transactions flowing through the system. Mysterious bottlenecks that appear in places you don't expect. Not knowing whether patterns are causal or correlation. The greater the info accrued on bottlenecks, the better the fixes, the more stable the system becomes. It becomes resilient and trusted to make profit for a company (such as a bank). It performs excellently under all conditions. We monitor it continuously for feedback and consistency.

    (3) The US is not a communist country, people have to commercialise just to make a living (or even stay off the streets).

    (4) Keto, just like Starting Strength, is not some kind of magic pill. It requires continuous feedback from personnel/Doctors, training of personnel, active communications of faulty outcomes (aka retrospectives) and incremental improvement. We do it everyday using Agile Cloud IT approaches developed by Silicon Valley. My point is, Keto, when executed correctly, is a paradigm. It isn't some kind of vegan crap sponsored by the cereal industry and other highly immoral people to feed highly processed slabs of crap to people. Give them free reign in the US for a few years and the dogs will be eating better than the humans.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by flathead View Post
    The key point is..... what is the definition of reversing? Well if it means that my body reacts to my old fat levels and carb levels with normal blood sugars, then, it is unlikely that I will see those days again. .
    Not necessarily true. It may just take longer. Just like Jim Fixx's heart attack.

  10. #30
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    starting strength coach development program
    Thanks for posting this threat. I am a fat-adapted trainee here and you can find my log here: Fat Adapted Training - Journey To 1000 lb

    I'm about 4.5 months in (not new to lifting, but had taken about 5 years off), and my progress on SS so far is:

    Bodyweight 155 -> 170
    Squat 135 -> 305
    Bench 125 -> 220
    OHP 65 -> 125
    DL 185 -> 390

    The key point is that becoming TRULY fat-adapted can take 24-36 months, and in my experience, performance and recovery is equal to, if not better than fueling with carbs. My gains on a low carb/ketogenic diet have been about as rapid as they were in my bodybuilding days experimenting with AAS on high carb diets. The only difference is body composition and health is superior fueling this way.

    The key to making it work is patience. We've been eating carbs 24/7 in an artificially lit world creating a pro-growth/inflammatory environment and speeding up cell cycles. The transition of day and night as well as seasonal transitions and dietary shifts are how we adapt to our environment and control the pace of cell repair and replacement. These processes are tightly controlled by the circadian and circannual rhythm. Given we have liven outside of this rhythm most of our lives because we can now import carbs, eat them out of season, extend our days with artificial light, and avoid the cold of winter which limits thermogenesis (a function of brown fat and muscle), we are no longer adapted to using ketosis to fuel superior performance.

    Think about it. The beta oxidation of fatty acids (i.e. palmitate) yields around 147 ATP per mole, while glycolysis only provides 38 ATP. The reason has to do with the anatomy of the electron transport chain in mitochondria. Electrons from carbohydrates enter at the first cytochrome which is leaky by design to produce free radicals for signalling. Signalling is more important in summer when we are active and hunting, fighting, etc. Electrons from fatty acids bypass cytochrome 1 so we produce less free radicals, and are able to tunnel electrons toward oxygen more efficiently to produce: ATP, metabolic water and CO2 levels.

    The key is that our environment should drive ketosis. Ketosis is not natural 24/7 just like eating carbs is not either. We are designed to go long periods without food on both a daily basis (perhaps fasting 18-20 hours) but also a seasonal basis, and we certainly weren't eating much carbs in the winter, other than what would come from animal flesh (remember, meats store glycogen, so eating a high meat diet would give us some glucose, hence the inuits may not be in ketosis due to high amounts of animal proteins). Being in strong sunlight, and grounding to the earth alone can drive the ATPase to spin faster producing ATP WITHOUT food electrons. UV light is known to LOWER respiration and electron flow from cytochrome 1-3 via nitric oxide, a free radical that also helps lower blood pressure through vasodilation. IR light (which 42% of sunlight happens to be) is able to directly act on the 4th cytochrome (cytochrome c oxidase) to make ATP without food. You can google photobiomodulation or red light therapy to learn more.

    So basically, our ancestors connected better with natural and to the environment, yielding energy directly from sunlight, and the earth, and probably drank quality water, and always breathed fresh air. They didn't need much food. If we learn to reconnect with nature, we can do the same.

    As for lifting weights being unnatural, that is true, but here's the deal. Our muscles MAIN purpose aside from generating force is actually to produce heat. This opens a can-of-worms on cold adapted mammals. There is a pathway in our brain that allows us to use our muscles to generate heat via thermogenesis. This process is driven by the thyroid hormones which activate the uncoupling proteins in skeletal muscle and brown fat, and what this does is increases fatty acid oxidation to produce heat INSTEAD of ATP. See when we are warm adapted, our respiratory chain is more stretched out, and we need to produce ATP as a means to unfold protein to allow for water binding (ref: Gilbert Ling). But in the cold, the respiratory chain is condensed, and electron flow speeds up. This causes the proton gradient (which normally drives ATP synthesis) to become dissipated as heat, and we begin burning calories for free heat. When this occurs, insulin is shut off (i.e. physiological insulin resistance). This is NOT a bad thing, but if one eats carbs in this state, you will get type 2 diabetes. That's why the inuits are facing that problem, because they now embrace heated homes, and eat carbs imported. They no longer follow their natural diets and environments. Mammals use the cold adapted pathway during hibernation to access autophagy, build muscle mass and reverse the inflammation/diabetes and obesity from excessive carbs in the fall.

    See carbs don't fatten us when UV light is present. Carbs fatten mammals at the end of summer/fall when UV light drops off a cliff. This is because we need strong UV light to drive electron flow from carbs within mitochondria. Without the UV, carb electrons leak, and produce more free radicals. This turns insulin ON to bring more glucose into cells to pack on fat. Overtime, as a mammals fat stores are filling up and swelling, and the cold hits, this is the signal for insulin resistance which does 2 things: 1) prevents more glucose from entering the cell and 2) keeps blood sugar high which acts as antifreeze. Then, the problem goes away when the mammal hibernates and activates the cold adapted/ketogenic pathway for winter.

    So the key is, if we are willing to activate the cold-adapted pathways, we can fuel on a ketogenic template, and lift weights with better recovery, lower inflammation and achieve longevity. I've used this cold adapted pathway to reverse my health ailments, and now I'm putting it to the test for performance.

    Another thing people have to realise is that when healthy, our bodies are totally capable of producing glucose from non-carb sources. If our liver is functioning optimally, we can use gluconeogenesis and convert some aminos into glucose. This would make sense of our ancestors especially in winter since they likely ate excessive amounts of protein from animals and next to no carbs given they cannot grow in winter months.

    Another pathway which is parallel to glycolysis, but an anabolic and not catabolic pathway is the PPP (pentose phosphate pathway). It is able to restore glycogen SANS carbs, and also is the most ancient, chemically reducing pathway known in mammals. It replenishes the key reducing agents such as NADPH to restore glutathione (master anti-oxidant) while also providing reducing compounds for the biosynthesis of steroid hormones from cholesterol.

    Here are a few good reads that reference a lot of what I have stated:

    Page not found Dr. Jack Kruse
    EMF 4: Why Might You Need Carbs for Performance? Dr. Jack Kruse

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