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Thread: Why not starting strength and "clean keto" combined ?

  1. #11
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    Fair comments. Not ruling out evolution and invention. Not ruling out that drug tech such as antibiotics have saved mass populations from dying when stepping on a contaminated object. But now, antibiotics are destroying healthy human bacteria and guidance is trying to reverse this. Populations are becoming antibiotic resistant.

    Sadly, the reason we are trying to unwind this "technological snake-oil" mess and occasionally look back to what the human body did many years ago is that the flow of money and organization of lobby groups means that for every valid drug, surgical technique, nutrition advice or emergency intervention there are 300 other snake-oils that are sold to us by the organised educated elite based on;

    .. "scripted medical rep shit-chat",
    .. studies that are meaningless,
    .. studies that are just showing placebo effect,
    .. studies that show short term effect,
    .. studies that are canned and resurrected with different input so that it will generate the desired result for the industry sponsored study.

    Its very sad that so much crap is being sold to people and morals have disintegrated to this degree.

  2. #12
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    Without quoting the wall of text:
    a) I don't think anyone's arguing that fat isn't a viable energy source, just that it's not efficient for conversion to muscle glycogen.

    b) I also have some experience with fasting, and having "good levels of energy" after 2.5 days (i.e. being functional) doesn't mean you could knock out a full body barbell workout for 3 sets of 5.

    c) Without arguing the archaeological validity of the paleo diet, which I find unconvincing, let's say that folks did indeed "complete strength feats in the winter." Do you believe that they were purposefully repeating these feats every 24-48 hours while incrementally increasing the load each time? Even if not, would their performance on a single "feat" have been better if they were better nourished?

    d) I don't think anyone disputes that keto is effective for a sedentary obese person. For an obese or diabetic novice, Starting Strength already has a protocol, and it involves carb restrictions with the exception of pre- and post-workout. Glucose that gets driven to the muscles in response to strength training doesn't impact blood glucose levels, and it's needed for performance and recovery-- so the trainee can keep getting stronger.

    e) and f) my own n=1 experience is that I was able to lose belly fat and improve my blood glucose from pre-diabetic levels to healthy levels by training consistently and eating intelligently (modest calorie restriction via rigorous tracking and macro targets). That included a minimum of 300g of carbs each day (sweet spot was about 330) which allowed me to perform and recover for the next workout. Having said that, it may well be true that someone with diabetes, autoimmune disorders, epilepsy, or some other morbidity might need to prioritize a keto diet over getting stronger as efficiently and quickly as possible. And that's ok. But their novice linear progression is not going to be as smooth or as effective as one that is done on a diet that allows for optimal performance and recovery.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by flathead View Post
    "Fat for fuel" is a valid source of fuel for strength gain because;

    (a) It has yet to be studied in depth as an alternative fuel source.
    Sorry, just cant get past the first sentence - its valid because it hasnt been studied in depth.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by flathead View Post
    Sadly, the reason we are trying to unwind this "technological snake-oil" mess and occasionally look back to what the human body did many years ago is that the flow of money and organization of lobby groups means that for every valid drug, surgical technique, nutrition advice or emergency intervention there are 300 other snake-oils that are sold to us by the organised educated elite based on;

    .. "scripted medical rep shit-chat",
    .. studies that are meaningless,
    .. studies that are just showing placebo effect,
    .. studies that show short term effect,
    .. studies that are canned and resurrected with different input so that it will generate the desired result for the industry sponsored study.
    Where are you getting this information?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by flathead View Post
    Fair comments. Not ruling out evolution and invention. Not ruling out that drug tech such as antibiotics have saved mass populations from dying when stepping on a contaminated object. But now, antibiotics are destroying healthy human bacteria and guidance is trying to reverse this. Populations are becoming antibiotic resistant.

    Sadly, the reason we are trying to unwind this "technological snake-oil" mess and occasionally look back to what the human body did many years ago is that the flow of money and organization of lobby groups means that for every valid drug, surgical technique, nutrition advice or emergency intervention there are 300 other snake-oils that are sold to us by the organised educated elite based on;

    .. "scripted medical rep shit-chat",
    .. studies that are meaningless,
    .. studies that are just showing placebo effect,
    .. studies that show short term effect,
    .. studies that are canned and resurrected with different input so that it will generate the desired result for the industry sponsored study.

    Its very sad that so much crap is being sold to people and morals have disintegrated to this degree.
    I think we're doing OK, historically speaking:

    life expectancy.jpg

    But if you want to reach back to when life expectancy was about 30, please do so and keep us posted.

  6. #16
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    Should I ruin his day and tell him the Inuit probably weren’t in ketosis in the winter?

  7. #17
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    Please do, Satchel.

  8. #18
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    My big old dose of anecdotal evidence is that for a short spell a few years back I was doing some weightlifting, and I was following a keto diet at this time. I dropped a fair amount of weight doing so, and quickly too, so my training suffered in that I was knackered during my workouts. Just fatigued. I thought that was just the way of it. Was my first time doing the olympic lifts, and I had the faintest of understandings that if I was losing weight then I would struggle to put on muscle. At the time I believed 'gaining in strength' and 'increasing muscle mass' were synonymous, which I am beginning to understand are in fact not necessarily synonymous. So I thought this was normal.

    One day I had enough and started to tuck into the carbs again. I couldn't believe the difference. I was launching the weights around me. I wasn't fatigued. In fact I would hazard to say I even felt good during training. So that's my carb based anecdote to add to the pile. I stopped training, got fat again, as evidence appears to tell me was likely to happen. I'm ignorant enough to keep trying though, but I am sticking with the carbs this time around.

    I also want 'my day ruined' about the Inuit probably not being in ketosis during winter, as that sounds interesting.

  9. #19
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    To be able to deduce certain fundamental truths you have to have a philosophical mind. A questioning mind when things go wrong. If you have enough interest to sift through the crap as well as the good stuff then you pick up on trends. Trends point to likely truths.

    My deductions are based on the following experience;

    (a) A good understanding of a corporate's sales pitch". I am a freelance IT performance test modelling specialist who has worked for over 25 corporates.

    (b) A good broad depth of understanding of lobbying, economies and simplification of concepts to reveal truth by reading good and crap news to deduce general themes and lobbying influence. Reading The Economist for 15 years helps.

    (c) As a performance test modeller I am responsible for ensuring that a complex system performs optimally under all loading conditions. I deal on a daily basis with statistics and highly complex corporate IT systems. These systems deal with billions of different flavoured transactions per second. When we execute a performance test, it is analogous to executing experiments and trials on a human. I am not saying its as complex, but it is a level of complexity that is extremely high and the system begins to exhibit the typical random behaviour issues that the human body does. In terms of doctoring statistics, I know every trick in the book to get a basic output that can be sold to someone to say anything you want it to say. I always ask why things have gone wrong. We have billions of data items to give us clues. We also have the ability to repeat an experiment under controlled conditions time and time again.

    (d) my bio-feedback health experiences - former 7 year diabetic, taking full bloods and urine every 6 months, general on-off lifting experience over 25 years. Hooked on a Glucose Monitor for a few weeks. I know what being led down a blind alley looks like. I know how to design tests to prove things are "more or less" what they are portrayed to be.


    To summarise, I have a set of key theories that govern my health. I currently trust the following sources;
    (a) Strength adaptation/linear progression/"healing based on targeted damaging of tissues" is currently "Starting Strength".
    (b) Autophagy, keto and fasting is from "Diet Doctor".
    (c) Gut Microbiome is from "gutmicrobiotafor health.com".

    Doesn't mean I can't change my mind, but these are trusted sources and there is nothing that indicates that they won't continue to be.

    PS: with reference to Inuits, it is likely that our carb tolerances have to do with where those carb specific genes were sourced from. My genetic heritage is Greek. The amount of carbs eaten in winter would have been higher than in the North but still significantly lower based on the seasonal produce available during winter. In October, a pig would be tied to a fig tree and it would spin round and eat the old figs lying on the floor. When the piggy fattened, it was cut up and stored for winter consumption. Carbs such as potatoes were also stored but the intensity of the farming and work led them to go in to ketosis on a regular basis. The body uses carbs as a first fuel choice, however, when you are fat-adapted you go seamlessly in to a fat burning mode with no delay, drowsiness, keto-flu, etc. I do it myself, I go from Keto to low-carb and the body switches quicker and quicker. And I can prove it with the latest Keyto breath analyser.

    It makes common sense that the body is able to seamlessly deal with winter keto, hardship, periods of fasting, etc

  10. #20
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    starting strength coach development program
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Where are you getting this information?
    I too would like to know where are you CUTTING AND PASTING this info from?

    Also, the next time you need modern medical technology (antibiotic or surgery), come back and let us know how you handled it. Surely you would not partake in “snake oil” therapies.

    Lastly, you could condense the cutting and pasting volume down to relevant information to your point. As Mark demonstrates on almost every post...BREVITY is the soul of wit.

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