I believe Rows suck as a DL accessory and here is why. I believe Rows suck as a DL accessory and here is why. - Page 2

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Thread: I believe Rows suck as a DL accessory and here is why.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Absolutely essential, since deadlifts themselves neither provide nor require control of the scapulae.
    When I still did deadlifts, I noticed being stronger with a loose upper back. I let the weight hang from my traps, but didn't attempt to pull my scapula down. This way the lift was shorter, and I was able to pull from a position of better leverage. For comparison, I got to 190kgx5 with strict form, and was able to get 210kgx5 with loose upper back. This still hits the upper part of traps, since you're standing there holding the weight thats pulling them down, put it didn't do much for my mid traps and rhomboids. I ended up with a shitty posture, that I've only now begun to correct by doing a lot of rows.

    Also, chins didn't do anything for my mid traps either, they're too much of a lat dominant movement. However, I'm not saying everyone will have the same muscular imbalances as I did. Weight training is highly individual, and you can't know what movements will be valuable for breaking through plateaus, before you try them.

    But yeah, as pure deadlift assistance, rows are probably too light to be really useful. But as a muscle builder for the mid traps and rhomboids, as well as a corrective excercise for keyboard posture? Very useful.

  2. #12
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    I was kidding. Deadlifts are all you need. Rows are fine for a light day pulling movement, but they are not necessary. Tell me what muscles are relaxed in a 500 deadlift.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    I was kidding. Deadlifts are all you need. Rows are fine for a light day pulling movement, but they are not necessary. Tell me what muscles are relaxed in a 500 deadlift.
    Haha, I really can't answer that, since I've never pulled "the 500". Most I did was 220kg, but that was when I was doing 200kgx5. I'm almost 100% sure I could've done 230kg when I was repping 210kgx5. But yeah, excuses.. I can answer that nothing is "relaxed" in a deadlift, since it's basically a full-body lift. Hovewer, I'm pretty sure no one here is going to argue that for example quads receive more work from squats than deads, even though they are used in the deadlift ( and more weight is being lifted ). The same logic applies when comparing deads to rows: while the traps are being streched under load in deads ( and the stretch is enough to make them grow, especially the upper portion ), they aren't doing any dynamic work. This can lead to postural issues down the road, since upper traps start to dominate, and you end up walking around with your shoulders shrugged up all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SivariKing View Post
    The same logic applies when comparing deads to rows: while the traps are being streched under load in deads ( and the stretch is enough to make them grow, especially the upper portion ), they aren't doing any dynamic work. This can lead to postural issues down the road, since upper traps start to dominate, and you end up walking around with your shoulders shrugged up all the time.
    How do you know this?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    How do you know this?
    From my own experience. After years of doing almost exclusively low-bar squats, bench, deadlift, chins and presses, my upper traps and anterior delts got strong, but I had no posterior delts or mid traps. Pressing didn't fix this. I needed to work those muscles directly with rows and rear delt focused movements. This is simply what I ended up with after neglecting smaller muscle groups while training. Other people will have different muscle imbalances ( or lack thereof ), depending on their body-type, training history, previous injuries, current training focus, etc.

  6. #16
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    Furthermore, why are tight, strong traps synonymous with “bad posture”

    Why do people think that loose traps and hanging shoulders are a good thing?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SivariKing View Post
    From my own experience. After years of doing almost exclusively low-bar squats, bench, deadlift, chins and presses, my upper traps and anterior delts got strong, but I had no posterior delts or mid traps. Pressing didn't fix this. I needed to work those muscles directly with rows and rear delt focused movements. This is simply what I ended up with after neglecting smaller muscle groups while training. Other people will have different muscle imbalances ( or lack thereof ), depending on their body-type, training history, previous injuries, current training focus, etc.
    Ah.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soule View Post
    Furthermore, why are tight, strong traps synonymous with “bad posture”

    Why do people think that loose traps and hanging shoulders are a good thing?
    It has more to do with the reason why your traps are tight in the first place. If it's like me, it has nothing to do with having strong traps. Quite the opposite, the reason was having low- and mid-traps that were too weak to actually keep my scapulae in their normal anatomical position in my daily life. This resulted in bad posture, difficulty breathing and bad form during lifts like bench, which require you to keep shoulders back on order to engage pecs.

  9. #19
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    But they were strong enough to keep your scapulas in place during a 190kg deadlift. Got it.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    But they were strong enough to keep your scapulas in place during a 190kg deadlift. Got it.
    I would be interested to know whether from your own experience in coaching hundreds of people, the weak link in a deadlift is the upper back / scapular strength? Or is it the ability to maintain a neutral low-back position?

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