I believe Rows suck as a DL accessory and here is why. I believe Rows suck as a DL accessory and here is why. - Page 3

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Thread: I believe Rows suck as a DL accessory and here is why.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SivariKing View Post
    I would be interested to know whether from your own experience in coaching hundreds of people, the weak link in a deadlift is the upper back / scapular strength? Or is it the ability to maintain a neutral low-back position?
    It's always the low back. Traps and rhomboids are isometric muscles in the deadlift.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    It's always the low back. Traps and rhomboids are isometric muscles in the deadlift.
    Thanks for clearing that up. I appreciate the knowledge you bring to the online fitness community. It helped me immensely when I started lifting.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SivariKing View Post
    Thanks for clearing that up. I appreciate the knowledge you bring to the online fitness community. It helped me immensely when I started lifting.
    Sounds to me like you need to start again and read the books this time.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
    Sounds to me like you need to start again and read the books this time.
    You mean because I thanked Rip for clearing up what is the weak link in the deadlift? Of course the low-back, glutes and hams do the "lifting" part of the pull from the floor. Everyone who's trained for more than two weeks knows this. The reason I said thanks, was because from talking with advanced lifters in different gyms the idea had been brought up, that upper back could be a weakness for some people. Of course, the more advanced you get, the more individualized your training has to become. This is true for everyone. Is it true for me or you? Maybe, I've lifting for over 12 years. Of course, that doesn't automatically make me an adanced lifter. But for me, deads were the first of the big lifts to stall, at 210kgx5. Bw was 95-97kg at the time, 190cm.

    So when you stall hard, you should try new things. Even when they might be "wrong" or not approved by the "book". That might include direct upper back work. For me, I like training my upper back. Doesn't mean it's effective for powerlifting purposes. But then again, I'm not a powerlifter. So I can do whatever i want in the gym. As can everyone else, regardless of what any guru or Messiah-like figure wants you to believe.

    Good luck with your training!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SivariKing View Post
    You mean because I thanked Rip for clearing up what is the weak link in the deadlift? Of course the low-back, glutes and hams do the "lifting" part of the pull from the floor. Everyone who's trained for more than two weeks knows this. The reason I said thanks, was because from talking with advanced lifters in different gyms the idea had been brought up, that upper back could be a weakness for some people. Of course, the more advanced you get, the more individualized your training has to become. This is true for everyone. Is it true for me or you? Maybe, I've lifting for over 12 years. Of course, that doesn't automatically make me an adanced lifter. But for me, deads were the first of the big lifts to stall, at 210kgx5. Bw was 95-97kg at the time, 190cm.

    So when you stall hard, you should try new things. Even when they might be "wrong" or not approved by the "book". That might include direct upper back work. For me, I like training my upper back. Doesn't mean it's effective for powerlifting purposes. But then again, I'm not a powerlifter. So I can do whatever i want in the gym. As can everyone else, regardless of what any guru or Messiah-like figure wants you to believe.

    Good luck with your training!
    'stalling hard' at a 190kg Deadlift because you claim to have not trained your 'mid traps' enough with rows just doesn't sound like something someone who has read...well...anything...would say. But yes, good luck to you on your novice progression. I hope your next 12 years of training are more productive.

  6. #26
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    My N=1

    I did a deadlift focused program last year with the goal of optimizing deadlift. My only exercises were deadlift, front squat , press, bench, barbell rows and non-weighted chin ups. I started the program by alternating SGDL's but quickly dumped them for rows. I cycled rows in an 8,5,3 pattern.

    I fully believe that the rows helped me drive deadlift , frst to 405 X 10, then 570 for a triple, at a bodyweight of just over 200 at 47 years old. I only got my rows up to 255 for sets of 5, but felt a direct carryover to deadlifts. For me, barbell rows drive deadlift better than any other assistance exercise I've done.
    Last edited by Mark Rippetoe; 02-26-2020 at 12:16 PM. Reason: spelling

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
    'stalling hard' at a 190kg Deadlift because you claim to have not trained your 'mid traps' enough with rows just doesn't sound like something someone who has read...well...anything...would say. But yes, good luck to you on your novice progression. I hope your next 12 years of training are more productive.
    Come on, man.. Did you even read what I wrote? I said in the first post, that I was able to lift textbook-style till 190kgx5. Beyond that, I noticed I was actually faster off the floor, if I let my upper back round. For some reason, this works the shit out of the upper portion of traps, esp. on the supinated hand side. For me this, led to really fucking tight traps and neck, a feeling that's not really fun.. It restricts your breathing and gives you that neanderthal posture. Of course, neanderthals were strong as shit, so if you're into that, I can understand..

    I did stall hard at 210kgx5 deads, which is still not much weight compared to individuals who are gifted at the lift. But that small technique adjustment of letting my upper back relax at the start position to get better leverage was what allowed me to keep progressing past the 190kg mark. How much do you pull, since we seem to be in some kind weird internet dominance-competition, lets get it ooonnnhhhh!!!!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZ-USF-UFGator View Post
    My N=1

    I did a deadlift focused program last year with the goal of optimizing deadlift. My only exercises were deadlift, front squat , press, bench, barbell rows and non-weighted chin ups. I started the program by alternating SGDL's but quickly dumped them for rows. I cycled rows in an 8,5,3 pattern.

    I fully believe that the rows helped me drive deadlift , frst to 405 X 10, then 570 for a triple, at a bodyweight of just over 200 at 47 years old. I only got my rows up to 255 for sets of 5, but felt a direct carryover to deadlifts. For me, barbell rows drive deadlift better than any other assistance exercise I've done.
    My row is at 335x5 now, PR was 350x5, and my deadlift is maybe 475 at age 64. So my n=1 doesn't comport with your n=1, and this means that n=1 is not terribly important.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZ-USF-UFGator View Post
    My N=1

    I did a deadlift focused program last year with the goal of optimizing deadlift. My only exercises were deadlift, front squat , press, bench, barbell rows and non-weighted chin ups. I started the program by alternating SGDL's but quickly dumped them for rows. I cycled rows in an 8,5,3 pattern.

    I fully believe that the rows helped me drive deadlift , frst to 405 X 10, then 570 for a triple, at a bodyweight of just over 200 at 47 years old. I only got my rows up to 255 for sets of 5, but felt a direct carryover to deadlifts. For me, barbell rows drive deadlift better than any other assistance exercise I've done.
    This sounds pretty amazing. Were these SS style Rows?
    My next question is how can you know for sure how much of your DL increase was thanks to the Rows?

    To be clear my position, rows are awesome and the more work the better but beyond that I don't share your experience. I can not logically recognise any correlation with that kind of increase in your DL or your passion for attributing it to rows. I'd guess you just worked really hard and your DL would have gone up the same if you were doing another good assistance exercise.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by OZ-USF-UFGator View Post
    My N=1

    I did a deadlift focused program last year with the goal of optimizing deadlift. My only exercises were deadlift, front squat , press, bench, barbell rows and non-weighted chin ups. I started the program by alternating SGDL's but quickly dumped them for rows. I cycled rows in an 8,5,3 pattern.

    I fully believe that the rows helped me drive deadlift , frst to 405 X 10, then 570 for a triple, at a bodyweight of just over 200 at 47 years old. I only got my rows up to 255 for sets of 5, but felt a direct carryover to deadlifts. For me, barbell rows drive deadlift better than any other assistance exercise I've done.
    You must mean 470 for a triple?

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