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Thread: Minimum effective dose and missing reps.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Gottstein View Post
    Agreed, and that got me to reread The Minimum Effective Dose of Training | Mark Rippetoe. In that you state "Tonnage and intensity are the two variables that comprise the dose of training."

    Based on that, and answering the question Nockian actually asked, I'd say say the stress from the 12, 12, 8 day may have been too close to MTD and not MED. The failures to even match tonnage at the same intensity for the next two workouts seems to support this.
    Just re-read that article. It's basically repeating my example of the guy with the feathers, vs every plate on the bar. It's actually the question I'm asking, but it fails to give any guidance, except to point out what is obvious at this point. So far my training programme has given me PRs on every lift-but M seeing the beginnings of a reversal particularly on squats where I got to 260lbs 1RM and now struggle with 253lbs. I'm Marks "175 to 165" contender, but in my case I've gone from 180 to 166.

    I'm not complaining as losing the fat has been a benefit-no longer need to take BP meds, I find general exercise like walking far easier and more pleasant and I look a damned sight better. I understand the trade off is inherent and strength loss is a consequence.

    I'm still making monthly PRs on Bench, press, deadlift and the accessory work has always had weekly improvements until the last couple of weeks.

    I'm going to have to guesstimate things by the look of it. There clearly is no simple sum I can do which is going to tell me if its time to knock off a bit of the load, or reduce the reps. I'm thinking that a rule of thumb approach such as failure of 2 reps, then it's time to lower that weight and increase the reps for volume. The proof will be in my log book that's for sure.

  2. #12
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    I think MED is an abstract training concept that depends on your current physical reality, your desired outcome, and the time frame you desire your outcome to happen in.

    If your goals exceed your physical reality your MED exceeds your MTD and your progression is invalid. If you are still progressing you are exceeding your MED and under your MTD. If you are not progressing you are over your MTD or under your MED. You can never exactly hit your MED, there are too many variables, the key is to be over your MED and under your MTD.

    I really don't understand MED ( minimum effective dose).
    Per Rip's article: "The Minimum Effective Dose will be the least amount of work you can do and still set PRs on a regular basis, as frequently as possible".


    Take a trainee who has learned to do 3x5 with an empty bar.

    The trainee adds two feathers and repeated the three sets-did he produce MED ?
    Depends on if that meets his goal for improvement and what his physical situation is. If his goal was 3 feathers then he was under his MED or over his MTD.


    The trainee gathers all the plates in the gym gets under the bar and earns a trip to causality-despite his injuries, did he produce MED ?
    Sounds like he exceeded MTD.

    Then, learning from his experience with using all the plates, he gets smart and begins to add 5lbs on every new session. He keeps on adding 5lbs until one day he discovers that he cannot complete his last set and only manages 3 reps and fails the 4th. Has he reached MED ? If he adds a further 5lbs the next week and fails the 5th rep of the third set would he still have reached MED ?
    Same as the feather example, he has exceeded his MTD or fallen under his MED. If the lifter is young with good recovery he has likely reached the intermediate phase and needs a higher MED. If the lifter is older with poorer recovery his dose may have exceeded his MTD, and a lower dose may help (temporarily)

    Nowhere have I seen that doing less makes you stronger. I have seen that doing too much and recovering too little makes you weaker.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nockian View Post
    That's what my coach Mr Baker programmed. Bench 192lbs Press 112lbs. 1RM
    If that is Andy Baker, then you should probably listen to his advice rather than mine, particularly if you are getting face to face or online coaching. If not:

    • LTEs are an assistance exercise - they will not necessarily go up like the main lifts which can be trained.
      Think of MED and MTD as concepts rather than a formula for what to do.
      If you are eating at a deficit and gaining on the main lifts be very happy with that.
      While eating at a deficit and having a lift consistently going down I would probably reduce volume.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nockian View Post
    I'm missing some part of this. In the failure example, would that be a failure to plan the training session appropriately and all things being equal, is that an example of over reaching ?

    I've recently had the experience where I found I could do less reps on LTE with the same 30Kg weight than the previous week, twice in a row. So I had achieved 12,12,8 then programmed 12,12,9 the following week and ended up with 12,10,8, which degraded the next week to 12,10,6 All other lifts went as planned. So is that over reaching, overtraining, did I fail to produce sufficient stress on the 12,12,8 week ? I'm losing weight at about 0.5lbs a week which clearly plays into it, but every other lift improved, just the LTEs that went bad.
    This
    I wouldn't read into your accessory lifts too much. Especially trying to use them as an example to tease out, or illustrate the nuances of MED, programming, etc.

    Accessory lifts are performed after the main lifts, and will fatigue you quite a bit.

    LTEs, especially if you do them with the added ROM with the lats, etc. will vary a bit from rep to rep mechanically.
    Depending when the lats "hand-off" to the triceps, how far you reach back, the angle of your elbows ... and that varies here or there.
    Especially over the course of 10+ reps.

    Also, I've found out over the years, higher rep stuff can vary from workout to workout (weekly, monthly) much more inconsistently than lower rep work (5's).

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nockian View Post
    I'm losing weight at about 0.5lbs a week which clearly plays into it, but every other lift improved, just the LTEs that went bad.
    "Every other lift improved..."

    I'd say you're doing just fine.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikesandcars View Post
    I think MED is an abstract training concept that depends on your current physical reality, your desired outcome, and the time frame you desire your outcome to happen in.

    If your goals exceed your physical reality your MED exceeds your MTD and your progression is invalid. If you are still progressing you are exceeding your MED and under your MTD. If you are not progressing you are over your MTD or under your MED. You can never exactly hit your MED, there are too many variables, the key is to be over your MED and under your MTD.


    Per Rip's article: "The Minimum Effective Dose will be the least amount of work you can do and still set PRs on a regular basis, as frequently as possible".


    Depends on if that meets his goal for improvement and what his physical situation is. If his goal was 3 feathers then he was under his MED or over his MTD.


    Sounds like he exceeded MTD.



    Same as the feather example, he has exceeded his MTD or fallen under his MED. If the lifter is young with good recovery he has likely reached the intermediate phase and needs a higher MED. If the lifter is older with poorer recovery his dose may have exceeded his MTD, and a lower dose may help (temporarily)

    Nowhere have I seen that doing less makes you stronger. I have seen that doing too much and recovering too little makes you weaker.
    That all sounds sensible. The last sentence in particular as the calorie deficit is going to add some extra junk stress. I'm thinking I should regard a cut is somewhat like doing a very sub maximal exercise such as jogging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Le Comte View Post
    If that is Andy Baker, then you should probably listen to his advice rather than mine, particularly if you are getting face to face or online coaching. If not:

    • LTEs are an assistance exercise - they will not necessarily go up like the main lifts which can be trained.
      Think of MED and MTD as concepts rather than a formula for what to do.
      If you are eating at a deficit and gaining on the main lifts be very happy with that.
      While eating at a deficit and having a lift consistently going down I would probably reduce volume.
    I've just emerged from 12 weeks of coaching and Andy is taking some time off from face to face to sort out other projects, so I'm on my own at this point. I did occur to me that there maybe an upper limit on LTEs, but it was the fact the numbers were reversing that made me wonder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
    I wouldn't read into your accessory lifts too much. Especially trying to use them as an example to tease out, or illustrate the nuances of MED, programming, etc.

    Accessory lifts are performed after the main lifts, and will fatigue you quite a bit.

    LTEs, especially if you do them with the added ROM with the lats, etc. will vary a bit from rep to rep mechanically.
    Depending when the lats "hand-off" to the triceps, how far you reach back, the angle of your elbows ... and that varies here or there.
    Especially over the course of 10+ reps.

    Also, I've found out over the years, higher rep stuff can vary from workout to workout (weekly, monthly) much more inconsistently than lower rep work (5's).
    Any thoughts on why it varies ? I have become far more strict with the LTEs, so it might be I'm now fatiguing the triceps a lot faster.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nockian View Post
    I've just emerged from 12 weeks of coaching and Andy is taking some time off from face to face to sort out other projects, so I'm on my own at this point. I did occur to me that there maybe an upper limit on LTEs, but it was the fact the numbers were reversing that made me wonder.
    Did you read Andy’s “Re-Thinking Your Training Program on a Cut” blog post?

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnys View Post
    Did you read Andy’s “Re-Thinking Your Training Program on a Cut” blog post?
    No I didn't. Thanks for the heads up. Heading over there now.

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