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Thread: COVID19 Factors We Should Consider/Current Events

  1. #4661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_V View Post
    I'm trying to make sure I understand you. Are you saying that If I know I'm sick and contagious (let's make this straightforward) I'm under no ethical obligation whatsoever to limit others exposure when possible?
    Better question: if it is impossible, long-term, to not be exposed to the corona virus and potentially become symptomatic, what is the point in limiting exposure? Barring a vaccine that's close to 100% effective, everyone gets this thing at some point no matter what. Let's rip the band aid off and get it over and done with. The idea that hospitals will overflow and "flattening the curve" are no longer tenable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovan Dragisic View Post
    Serbia’s dictator president tried to push his luck after getting “re-elected” by trying to enforce another curfew for this weekend. People broke into their Capitol Hill shortly afterwards. It took the cops until early morning to regain the streets. Day two to follow.
    Maybe someday the American populace will have these kinds of balls.

  2. #4662
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_V View Post
    I'm trying to make sure I understand you. Are you saying that If I know I'm sick and contagious (let's make this straightforward) I'm under no ethical obligation whatsoever to limit others exposure when possible?
    Where exactly did I state that? Yes, let us make this straightforward:

    I am individually responsible for my health. Rather than: You are responsible for my health and so are you. Everyone is responsible for my well-being except me.

    Am I sick and contagious? The guidelines for being contagious change often.

    Fever? No fever? Blue toes? Muscle aches? Cough? Vaginal discharge? Diarrhea? Symptoms get added to the list....hang nails next?

    I was in the same zip code with someone who thought they had the COVID, should I stay home for 17.3 days and need a negative test before I can answer the front door?

    56% of positively tested humans do not expel enough virus particles to be detected....better put on that mask. Oh, but wait...the ONLY masks that work are CORRECTLY fitted N95 masks. Better not have any facial hair. Oh well, better show everyone I am "in this together" and put on a cool blinged out (trendy), mask as part of my wardrobe. Fuck that.

    If I have an upper respiratory infection AND I go traipsing around a Hospice/nursing home, well then, you can ask me about my ethics. Otherwise, don't assume. Don't try to put words into my mouth. Straightforward? That needs to mean the target doesn't move every time we look up to take aim.

    sb

  3. #4663
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_V View Post
    Fair enough, not all mask types have equal filtration efficiencies, that's certainly not an argument I was making. Looks like masks with multiple layers of differing fabrics is key and something that can be made at home with a needle and thread:

    https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.0c03252

    Unfortunately, as you noted, they're not very clear on breath collection "Exhaled breath particles were captured and differentiated into two size fractions" seems to be the extent of their description.



    I can't really argue that you should or should not be surprised but like a lot of people who've read and heard various arguments that masks don't do anything, I was surprised. Doesn't it stand to reason that blocking some virus at the source would reduce the probability of transmission? I think the second article I linked shares some useful anecdotal evidence that a mask can prevent transmission. There's also this story of two infected hair stylists that failed to infect any patrons:

    Hairstylists with COVID-19 didn't infect any of their 140 clients. Face masks may be why. | Live Science

    It's not a controlled experiment but it's not nothing either.
    My point is that there is a clear difference in the filtration capabilities of a surgical mask vs a cloth mask. The latter being almost useless. Surgical masks are being widely misused by those who have acquired them (they are one-use masks that can harbor microflora after use.) But a surgical mask does have a much higher filtration capability than cloth. And it is vastly inferior to an N95.

    The second article is just... sigh.... so full of holes, people should wear IT as a mask.

    But I get your point, I am not attacking you. Wearing a surgical mask correctly *might* help curb the transmission of respiratory droplets. But it ain't gonna prevent the spread of a virus.

  4. #4664
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_V View Post
    I'm trying to make sure I understand you. Are you saying that If I know I'm sick and contagious (let's make this straightforward) I'm under no ethical obligation whatsoever to limit others exposure when possible?
    This statement is called "goalpost shifting." There are several things wrapped up in this statement that you are either assuming to be true or ignoring.

    A person does not have a right to initiate aggressive force against another person or his property, no. A person does not have the right to be free from being harmed due to his own actions, however.

    Does "exposure" constitute "initiating aggressive force?" That's where the "goalpost shifting" comes in.

  5. #4665
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Where? Link/C&P.
    Hollis: You have until 4:00 CDT to document this, or your ass is gone. I'm tired of Leftist buckets of shit calling us ugly names.

  6. #4666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Berry View Post
    Where exactly did I state that? Yes, let us make this straightforward:

    I am individually responsible for my health. Rather than: You are responsible for my health and so are you. Everyone is responsible for my well-being except me.

    Am I sick and contagious? The guidelines for being contagious change often.

    Fever? No fever? Blue toes? Muscle aches? Cough? Vaginal discharge? Diarrhea? Symptoms get added to the list....hang nails next?

    I was in the same zip code with someone who thought they had the COVID, should I stay home for 17.3 days and need a negative test before I can answer the front door?

    56% of positively tested humans do not expel enough virus particles to be detected....better put on that mask. Oh, but wait...the ONLY masks that work are CORRECTLY fitted N95 masks. Better not have any facial hair. Oh well, better show everyone I am "in this together" and put on a cool blinged out (trendy), mask as part of my wardrobe. Fuck that.

    If I have an upper respiratory infection AND I go traipsing around a Hospice/nursing home, well then, you can ask me about my ethics. Otherwise, don't assume. Don't try to put words into my mouth. Straightforward? That needs to mean the target doesn't move every time we look up to take aim.

    sb
    I wasn't quoting you and wasn't assuming, my question was just trying to get clarity on your statement "you are responsible for your health". It looks like we may agree that there are cases where an individual is also responsible for the health of others (traipsing about a nursing home as you said).

  7. #4667
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    Quote Originally Posted by ltomo View Post
    Better question: if it is impossible, long-term, to not be exposed to the corona virus and potentially become symptomatic, what is the point in limiting exposure? .
    That is, in fact, a better question.

    Goes hand in hand, in my mind, with what is the point in getting tested?

    -There is no "treatment" (outside of controlling symptoms) that has proven effective.
    -Asymptomatic positives only add to the hysteria
    -Symptomatic cases should be locked in at home anyway, right?


    sb

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnst_nhb View Post
    My point is that there is a clear difference in the filtration capabilities of a surgical mask vs a cloth mask. The latter being almost useless. Surgical masks are being widely misused by those who have acquired them (they are one-use masks that can harbor microflora after use.) But a surgical mask does have a much higher filtration capability than cloth. And it is vastly inferior to an N95.

    The second article is just... sigh.... so full of holes, people should wear IT as a mask.

    But I get your point, I am not attacking you. Wearing a surgical mask correctly *might* help curb the transmission of respiratory droplets. But it ain't gonna prevent the spread of a virus.
    Could you wash the mask to get rid of the microflora? Surgical masks are one time use when performing surgery for obvious reasons, maybe fine to reuse for this purpose. A lot of companies are making cheap 3 layer multi fabric masks that can be reused with proper care. There are reasons to believe that the dose to probability-of-infection response is non-linear, in other words reducing exposure by half reduces probability of infection by more than half. Nassim Taleb explains this with a graph here (see the second bullet point):

    https://medium.com/incerto/the-masks...e-7de897b517b7

    I certainly don't feel attacked, glad to have the discussion with people that think a little different about our predicament.

  9. #4669
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfsully View Post
    ." Each of your negative tests will be counted toward that ratio, by the date it was tested. If you are positive each time, those positives will count toward the total % positive.

    In other words, if you are reporting tests, each test gets counted once. If you are reporting cases, each case gets counted once.

    What distortion to the reporting do you worry about with your multiple tests?
    Thanks ! I was curious on the number of tests on that side of the equation. The reporting (news) of increased testing is that it is going up. I was trying to figure out what that means. And I remember back a few months that there was criticism that not enough testing capacity existed . One person being tested 4x seems to be different than 4 people newly tested.

    As an aside, my local testing unit is very efficient, very professional, and very accommodating. It is on par with any of the modern systems that people appreciate.

  10. #4670
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Jackson View Post
    I will say that globalism and mass immigration are the crucial ingredients of our whole neo-liberal capitalist system...
    30+ years later, instead of the emancipatory free-market dream they promised, the reality is the middle class has been slaughtered. We're told that to be free and happy is to live in a house with 2 iPads, a fuck-ton of unnecessary, cheaply made Chinese product, and a car or two on the driveway... most importantly, happiness is a credit rating which allows you to pay for it all, and pretend it's all real. The truth is we have stagnated and live in an absurd fantasy world created by and for the 1%, with an 11 year bull run sustained by nothing but debt creation and share buybacks. These wars seem to have benefited to the 1% the most, too. I don't think Halliburton and Raytheon are interested in economic Marxism, and they are certainly unaffected by the racial tension on our streets.
    Another idealistic theory that sounds good to a lot of people, but fails catastrophically in reality. But, it was for our own good. Globalization mirrors communism in many ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollis View Post
    75% false positive for the basic test, no, that is not true...
    Nobody made that claim.

    Now, what is your excuse for deliberately making that false statement?

    Choose one:
    -Math is racist, so I am not allowed to do it
    -Science is white supremacy, so it should not be allowed
    -You are ebil, so the truth doesn't matter
    -I was triggered, so you need to consider my feelings before reality
    -The truth is too dangerous for people to know and it should be resisted

    Quote Originally Posted by David A. Rowe View Post
    I may have been a little too harsh earlier. There's another small group of people still working civilian positions: the patriotic. Many are, themselves, veterans. But they are wearing very thin after years of sequestration, poor leadership, expanding corporate sector salaries and benefits, and a largely peacetime military relative to the earlier years of GWOT/OIF/OEF. So, slowly, the scales in the DoD are tipping further as more "diversity" champions are retained and more warriors and patriots leave. The military is trending in such a way, too. They shut down an entire Marine Air Base over a few positive COVID-19 cases.
    Many people think this is the point of the BLM movement; it is a trojan horse used to establish "diversity professionals" and information control in police departments and military or military-related institutions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ltomo View Post
    It's possible the conservative justices are limp-wristed and submissive, but I'm of the opinion that they know exactly what they're doing. A person doesn't become a member of one of the highest branches of government in the world by operating off a principle of appeasement.
    Many are competent, sharp, aggressive, highly ambitious individuals. However, they mostly have not lived in the real world for decades. They primarily interact with a select group of individuals in very controlled environments.
    They don't view it as being submissive or as appeasement; They view it as diplomacy and compromise. Key behaviours that are required for most individuals to get to the highest branches of government are: extreme caution, avoiding controversy and following the course of least resistance. They are often not bad people or weak people, but they develop false perceptions of the world around them and are highly fearful of losing power or damaging their public image.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark E. Hurling View Post
    ...This decision guts the multi-state compact...to bypass the Electoral College entirely.
    How?

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