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  1. #5421
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoGodsNoSpotters View Post
    People have died from Covid-19, a lot more people are unemployed from the response, and literally everyone has had important aspects of their lives disrupted in some way, shape, or form. This isn't funny, it is reality that we are living, and it's worth having a serious conversation about.
    Who has died from COVID-19? And i case you haven't noticed, we've been having a serious discussion about it for the past 5 months.

  2. #5422
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    To debate the efficacy of masks is to accept the premise that slowing the spread is beneficial to humanity. I have not seen proof of this, on the contrary, I have seen evidence that attempts at slowing the spread is catastrophic to humanity. More people may die from coronavirus alone as a result of these actions.

    So why do YOU think wearing a mask is a big deal?

  3. #5423
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoGodsNoSpotters View Post
    1. Wearing a mask costs almost nothing. The monetary price is negligible.
    What about the spiritual cost? What about the social cost? What about the cost to your ability to freely make decisions for yourself?

  4. #5424
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoGodsNoSpotters View Post


    2. It's not exactly rocket science to figure out why a mask would help protect yourself and others against coronavirus. Covid-19 is a respiratory disease that you catch by breathing shit in, and spread by breathing shit out.


    .
    You have ignored a lot of solid evidence that this virus may actually have a high manual/fecal-oral transmission rate, and that respiratory transmission is nowhere as high as claimed

  5. #5425
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    This is what happens when you think you're having a serious conversation, and you're really only listening to CNN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoGodsNoSpotters View Post
    1. Having people take the low-cost precaution of mask wearing seems perfectly fine if it allows them to return to work, gym, etc, and is certainly much preferable to extremely costly, economically destructive measures like business closure and lockdown.
    Lockdowns and business closures must happen if people don't wear masks? Why is that the automatic, accepted assumption?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoGodsNoSpotters View Post
    2. It's not exactly rocket science to figure out why a mask would help protect yourself and others against coronavirus. Covid-19 is a respiratory disease that you catch by breathing shit in, and spread by breathing shit out. You don't need to cite any scientific studies to figure out that putting a filter in front of the thing you use to breath will help reduce the chances of both, even if that filter is imperfect, and in any event, certainly can do no physical harm.
    Think about the long journey a fart must undergo to offend your olfactory senses and remember that smells come from molecules (COMPOUNDS) that are much larger than a virus.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoGodsNoSpotters View Post
    3. They cost nothing, their efficacy is based in common sense, and honestly, even in the case that masks are a totally ineffective piece of security theatre, if they help quell some misguided fears and restore some peoples confidence in going out and getting the country running again, that is a huge benefit, which cannot be understated.
    Well, with the attitude that we need to close business and eliminate jobs OR wear masks, it should come as no surprise that you're reaping what you've sowed. Let me guess... You were pro lockdown until times got tough.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoGodsNoSpotters View Post
    4. I believe any proper response has to take into account the medical, psychological, and economic costs and benefits involved, and pick those strategies that minimize costs while maximizing benefits. Masks would seem from the above points to provide some measure of medical and psychological benefit while accruing almost zero economic cost. So why hate on them?
    They didn't start with masks did they? They started with the most austere, ridiculous measures possible and started working their way back. They put millions, yourself included, out of work, to "stop the spread" and "flatten the curve." To what effect? Where are we now because of those "heroic" efforts? Do you feel like the loss of your job saved a life? Do you feel like your hardships are and were worth it? Do you think that maybe... Just maybe... they didn't think ahead to what the backend costs of the lockdown might be? And now, we're all supposed to peacefully comply and trust these same assholes who told us back in March not to wear a mask because putting you out of work was more important!

  7. #5427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank_B View Post
    Well, with the attitude that we need to close business and eliminate jobs OR wear masks, it should come as no surprise that you're reaping what you've sowed. Let me guess... You were pro lockdown until times got tough.
    1. Literally no one has seen anything like this event in their lifetime, on this global scale and magnitude. Expecting someone with no special expertise in epidemiology or government to somehow divine the correct response instantaneously and stick with it throughout the entirety of this event is ludicrous. Is this something you're genuinely expecting of people? I was very concerned about the economic impact then, and I'm still very concerned about it now, I can just better voice and direct those concerns having gained some life experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    This is what happens when you think you're having a serious conversation, and you're really only listening to CNN.
    2. Fuck CNN, fuck MSNBC, fuck Steven Colbert, Rachel Maddow, and whatever other talking head they've got now, I don't listen to that liberal swill. They'd like to boil down all the country's issues to an equation of "cheeto man = bad". I think I already said I'm 25, I definitely don't know anyone in their 20s that takes that shit seriously. CNN is an irrelevant echo chamber, I hoped we could have a conversation with you trying to reduce me to that as a strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank_B View Post
    They didn't start with masks did they? They started with the most austere, ridiculous measures possible and started working their way back. They put millions, yourself included, out of work, to "stop the spread" and "flatten the curve." To what effect? Where are we now because of those "heroic" efforts? Do you feel like the loss of your job saved a life? Do you feel like your hardships are and were worth it? Do you think that maybe... Just maybe... they didn't think ahead to what the backend costs of the lockdown might be? And now, we're all supposed to peacefully comply and trust these same assholes who told us back in March not to wear a mask because putting you out of work was more important!
    3. Telling people not to wear masks was a transparent ploy to save limited supplies for frontline medical professionals. Right or wrong (and I heavily lean towards wrong in this case, due to the total erosion of public trust this kind of inconsistent messaging creates), this was the intention behind the action. Seems like there's probably a reason medical professionals want to wear them, and common sense reasoning backs why it would have some beneficial effect. They're nowhere near 100% effective but they certainly can't hurt.

    4. The lockdown was useless because it was poorly implemented by vacillating politicians who first wanted to ignore the situation, then caved to public pressure, coming in with a severe response much too late in the game. They essentially implemented it in such a way that it gave us the worst of both worlds. We got the economic catastrophe without it doing anything to halt the viral spread. As soon as this became apparent to the public they vacillated back to reopening. I don't feel that the lockdown accomplished anything other than eroding trust and solidarity, but this has as much or more to do with how it was implemented as the strategy of a lockdown in itself.

    5. Given the place we are in now, with a large pool of viral infection, an extremely volatile political situation, and severe economic damage already done, the best path forward is taking any and all precautions that don't involve further economic harm. This is the best way to allow for reconstruction while avoiding future viral spikes, more panic, and another poorly implemented lockdown. It's so much better to accept some truly minor inconveniences than to have the economy destroyed for nothing all over again.

  8. #5428
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForbiddenDonut View Post
    What about the spiritual cost? What about the social cost? What about the cost to your ability to freely make decisions for yourself?
    1. What sense of spirituality is that? The Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Bottom Half of Your Own Face? Your spiritual cost literally doesn't matter. We're talking about people losing their livelihoods and dying.

    2. I can still hang out with people with the bottom half of my face covered. If I'm on a date that's going well I'll def take the mask off at that point, but that is a much smaller, calculated instance of risk.

    3. I'm making my own decisions. It's just smarter to wear a mask at this point. If I didn't believe it was a smarter decision for all the reasons I explained in detail I wouldn't do it.

  9. #5429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovan Dragisic View Post
    Hahaha they were running the same speech here. The next teo weeks are the crucial. It got to be a trope pretty soon. Dunno, it seems to me that the whole clickbait mania has run its course here. Mind you, we don’t have anything resembling the multi billion media industry you guys do. You can safely ignore the mask mandate now. Most of the waiters are carrying their masks around their elbows. The only ones pushing the “new normal” idiocy are the digital marketers now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Harlin View Post
    Same. I hope someone is finding these people and punching their momma in the mouth.
    They have been suspiciously quiet for a while now. What's interesting to me is how everybody that is still pro-panic sounds exactly like the guy quoted below. It's a combination of chicken little/listen to the overlords/listen to the experts BS they've been spouting from day one. If four and a half months of evidence hasn't changed anyones mind it's not even worth arguing with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoGodsNoSpotters View Post
    Oh boy, this post is probably gonna get me a whole lot of hate, but I'm genuinely confused. Rip, you seem like a logically minded guy who values tangible effects over idealogical posturing and I'm in agreement with a lot of your other views on Covid situation, so I'm hoping we can have a straightforward conversation about the facts in this matter and not descend into personal attacks. Would be a refreshing break from the polarized political echo chambers that seem to be defining a lot of communication right now.

    Why are you against the idea of wearing masks? I'm totally with you that the Covid-19 response in America has been a poorly handled mess rooted in hysteria, and ultimately done more harm economically and psychologically than it has done good medically. But there are a couple points in the particular case of masks that run contrary to your opinions, am I'm wondering how you account for them:


    1. Wearing a mask costs almost nothing. The monetary price is negligible. There's mild facial discomfort and it's little sweaty when working out, but I've been lifting heavy in one quite frequently for over a month and never really encountered a problem. I've maxed out on deadlifts in a mask, I've squatted a heavy 5x5 in a mask. It's maybe about as bad as a gym with crappy air conditioning, but certainly no worse. You sweat, but it's just not a big deal. Having people take the low-cost precaution of mask wearing seems perfectly fine if it allows them to return to work, gym, etc, and is certainly much preferable to extremely costly, economically destructive measures like business closure and lockdown.

    2. It's not exactly rocket science to figure out why a mask would help protect yourself and others against coronavirus. Covid-19 is a respiratory disease that you catch by breathing shit in, and spread by breathing shit out. You don't need to cite any scientific studies to figure out that putting a filter in front of the thing you use to breath will help reduce the chances of both, even if that filter is imperfect, and in any event, certainly can do no physical harm. At worst, a mask does nothing, but common sense would seem to indicate that they would help at least a little bit.

    3. As a young man (25), I'm feeling the economic effects of the coronavirus very strongly. I went from having a full-time salaried position supporting my own life to having to live at home with my parents, and feeling relatively lucky over the fact that I could snag a part time gig doing contract work in a related field after several months of unemployment. I'm more fortunate than some, but rebuilding my life is going to take a lot of hard work when this is over. I want to move on with my life, I want things to open and stay open. I want to see a rebuilt sense of public confidence so that people can start having opportunities again. The absolute last thing I want to see is another lockdown where I lose my job, my gym access, and my sense of stability and purpose all over again, and the country is further economically and psychologically damaged. In the interest of this, it seems like a strategy of individuals taking common sense precautions and allowing businesses to resume normal function is the best path forward. Masks seem like part of this. They cost nothing, their efficacy is based in common sense, and honestly, even in the case that masks are a totally ineffective piece of security theatre, if they help quell some misguided fears and restore some peoples confidence in going out and getting the country running again, that is a huge benefit, which cannot be understated.

    4. Not here to debate the existence or non-existence of Covid, but as it's topically relevant, here is how I view the situation. Covid-19 is a real disease, which causes cold and flu-like symptoms. It spreads easily, potentially causing a high number of cases. The vast majority of these are extremely minor, and there is a very low possibility of actual death or permanent impairment, which almost always occurs in people who were already at risk in some form or another to infectious illness. The actual number of deaths it causes is less important than the fact that it causes an unusual form of death, which we as humans find frightening. People fear getting it as people often fear the unknown. This fear of unusual death, combined with the rapid way it is able to spread is an easy equation for hysteria. This hysteria has lead to an inconsistent, poorly planned response with the economically destructive effects we've already witnessed. I believe any proper response has to take into account the medical, psychological, and economic costs and benefits involved, and pick those strategies that minimize costs while maximizing benefits. Masks would seem from the above points to provide some measure of medical and psychological benefit while accruing almost zero economic cost. So why hate on them?


    Apologies for the essay, but hope you can shed some light on your views on the matter. Thanks!


    For anyone who feels like responding to this with add hominem attacks, ideological rhetoric, or troll humor, I'm really not interested. People have died from Covid-19, a lot more people are unemployed from the response, and literally everyone has had important aspects of their lives disrupted in some way, shape, or form. This isn't funny, it is reality that we are living, and it's worth having a serious conversation about.
    The government has lost control and lost trust. If masks are so important, why didn't we start with that instead of hitting the lockdown panic button? Why are we even trying to "slow the spread" or whatever when Sweden and others have done the opposite with great success. Why should you or I listen to these idiots anymore? When someone is panicking you don't indulge them, you either slap some sense into them or leave them behind.

    If the governors really cared about their people they would all stand up on national television, tell everyone that the danger of Covid-19 was grossly exaggerated, and that the response was incredibly innappropriate and destructive. They would take responsibility and apologize for the lives they've destroyed. They would all resign from their offices and willingly go to prison for their crimes.

    The fact that none of them are doing this means that they have given up their right to lead. The only reason any of them are still in office is because they're a bunch of power-hungry psychopaths.

  10. #5430
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoGodsNoSpotters View Post
    Oh boy, this post is probably gonna get me a whole lot of hate, but I'm genuinely confused. Rip, you seem like a logically minded guy who values tangible effects over idealogical posturing and I'm in agreement with a lot of your other views on Covid situation, so I'm hoping we can have a straightforward conversation about the facts in this matter and not descend into personal attacks. Would be a refreshing break from the polarized political echo chambers that seem to be defining a lot of communication right now.

    Why are you against the idea of wearing masks? I'm totally with you that the Covid-19 response in America has been a poorly handled mess rooted in hysteria, and ultimately done more harm economically and psychologically than it has done good medically. But there are a couple points in the particular case of masks that run contrary to your opinions, am I'm wondering how you account for them:


    1. Wearing a mask costs almost nothing. The monetary price is negligible. There's mild facial discomfort and it's little sweaty when working out, but I've been lifting heavy in one quite frequently for over a month and never really encountered a problem. I've maxed out on deadlifts in a mask, I've squatted a heavy 5x5 in a mask. It's maybe about as bad as a gym with crappy air conditioning, but certainly no worse. You sweat, but it's just not a big deal. Having people take the low-cost precaution of mask wearing seems perfectly fine if it allows them to return to work, gym, etc, and is certainly much preferable to extremely costly, economically destructive measures like business closure and lockdown.

    2. It's not exactly rocket science to figure out why a mask would help protect yourself and others against coronavirus. Covid-19 is a respiratory disease that you catch by breathing shit in, and spread by breathing shit out. You don't need to cite any scientific studies to figure out that putting a filter in front of the thing you use to breath will help reduce the chances of both, even if that filter is imperfect, and in any event, certainly can do no physical harm. At worst, a mask does nothing, but common sense would seem to indicate that they would help at least a little bit.

    3. As a young man (25), I'm feeling the economic effects of the coronavirus very strongly. I went from having a full-time salaried position supporting my own life to having to live at home with my parents, and feeling relatively lucky over the fact that I could snag a part time gig doing contract work in a related field after several months of unemployment. I'm more fortunate than some, but rebuilding my life is going to take a lot of hard work when this is over. I want to move on with my life, I want things to open and stay open. I want to see a rebuilt sense of public confidence so that people can start having opportunities again. The absolute last thing I want to see is another lockdown where I lose my job, my gym access, and my sense of stability and purpose all over again, and the country is further economically and psychologically damaged. In the interest of this, it seems like a strategy of individuals taking common sense precautions and allowing businesses to resume normal function is the best path forward. Masks seem like part of this. They cost nothing, their efficacy is based in common sense, and honestly, even in the case that masks are a totally ineffective piece of security theatre, if they help quell some misguided fears and restore some peoples confidence in going out and getting the country running again, that is a huge benefit, which cannot be understated.

    4. Not here to debate the existence or non-existence of Covid, but as it's topically relevant, here is how I view the situation. Covid-19 is a real disease, which causes cold and flu-like symptoms. It spreads easily, potentially causing a high number of cases. The vast majority of these are extremely minor, and there is a very low possibility of actual death or permanent impairment, which almost always occurs in people who were already at risk in some form or another to infectious illness. The actual number of deaths it causes is less important than the fact that it causes an unusual form of death, which we as humans find frightening. People fear getting it as people often fear the unknown. This fear of unusual death, combined with the rapid way it is able to spread is an easy equation for hysteria. This hysteria has lead to an inconsistent, poorly planned response with the economically destructive effects we've already witnessed. I believe any proper response has to take into account the medical, psychological, and economic costs and benefits involved, and pick those strategies that minimize costs while maximizing benefits. Masks would seem from the above points to provide some measure of medical and psychological benefit while accruing almost zero economic cost. So why hate on them?


    Apologies for the essay, but hope you can shed some light on your views on the matter. Thanks!


    For anyone who feels like responding to this with add hominem attacks, ideological rhetoric, or troll humor, I'm really not interested. People have died from Covid-19, a lot more people are unemployed from the response, and literally everyone has had important aspects of their lives disrupted in some way, shape, or form. This isn't funny, it is reality that we are living, and it's worth having a serious conversation about.
    Implicit in your entire post is the notion that the government is right and must make this decision for us because only They know what is best. Additionally, you’re not really arguing for or against masks here, and you’ve not made any important points. You’re basically saying we should comply because “it’s not that big of a deal”.

    So when the government finally decides (because Obama talked about this some time ago) that you can’t eat foods with saturated fats anymore because They know best and must protect you, will your argument be “guys, Impossible Burgers aren’t that bad. Why are you against the No Fat Allowed Law?” After all, obesity and CVD are endemic and we must(!) stop them both.

    I have no problem with masks per se. People can and should wear them if they want because freedom. Just like how people should be able to assess their own risk of getting COVID and decide whether or not they should go out in the first place to manage that risk.

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