COVID19 Factors We Should Consider/Current Events

[CommanderFun]

This is an interesting question for me. Biden's mandate being enjoined means that businesses are no longer required to mandate the vaccine. However, businesses can still choose to mandate the vaccine. So the question is whether a private business has the right to impose such a requirement on its employees. Having dealt with businesses in the past, I think they have the right to set standards for their employees. That's how the employment relationship works.

You're missing what I'm saying. Businesses are instituting mandates, and lying to employees saying it's due to the one that is now null and void from the president. The time frame, the weekly testing, all the same as Biden's mandate. The court's injunction has become meaningless.

[Mark Rippetoe]

That is precisely what is going to happen to the un-vaccinated as they will be considered potential covid carriers. The reason that you and me survived the polio pandemic was due to our parents getting us vaccinated. There was no question whether you wanted it or not you just got it plus a vaccination certificate.

Preventing Polio | Smithsonian Institution

"In the face of uncontrolled infection, Americans did the only thing they knew to do under the circumstances, Conis says, “which is basically what we’re doing now: isolating, closing churches, cancelling festivals and parties, closing parks.” Informational pamphlets from that period published by the likes of Lysol and MetLife urged children to stay away from basically anything fun—movie theaters, beaches, pools, and public transit. Newspapers warned families not to eat outdoors. High schools held graduation over the radio.

Like this spring and summer, it was a tough and lonely season. “If people remember anything from the late 1940s, it’s often that as a child, you were hot, you were bored, but your parents wouldn’t let you out of the house to play with your friends,” Rogers says. That’s because, she adds, it was impossible to identify who might be contagious and give a child polio. “In a lot of ways, it does look like today.”

What polio in post-WWII America can teach us about living in a pandemic | NOVA | PBS

I try, but as I said before there is so much information available about effective treatments for covid it boggles the mind. There is also just as much information for the prevention of covid where effective treatments are not required one being isolation and vaccination. We live in a broken world and there is a lot of deception out there. I try to look at both sides of the argument and see where the truth lies. My experience is that I have already been in one pandemic back in the 60's and I was vaccinated against it and that was polio, it has since been eradicated in most parts of the world. You could not give in those days a treatment for children with polio except braces and an iron lung.

As I told Mark I spent plenty of time in India and I saw plenty of diseases there, some of which I was vaccinated for, for mosquitos you just had to wear mosquito repellent and and sleep under a net. Others such as waterborne diseases I had to boil the water or add chlorine tablets, only eat cooked food, that was the prevention, but just in case I got the runs I carried anti diarrhea medication. I just look at covid as another disease to protect myself from except it is in my back yard now and not over there.

wal, this is just silly, and it causes me to question your ability to process information. The injections are not vaccines, children are not affected by this disease as they were by polio, and there are several effective treatments for covid -- there were none for polio. We've provided all the evidence you need to understand this, and yet you post this propaganda from PBS as though it's true. Are you this susceptible to transparent lies?

[Mark Rippetoe]

Thanks for the clarification. Agreed there were better options available, and many actions actually taken that were dubious. IMO, sub-optimising is often the risk with any specialised field i.e. attempting to solve one problem exactly without enough consideration of the wider implications. Even well-intentioned experts suffer from this, IMO partially because they are biased about the relative importance of their field.

Just to be clear, theoretically do you support that there could be a public health emergency (say bubonic plague or ebola) where it would be appropriate for the government to intervene with a lockdown order? Or would this type of response fall under personal responsibility, i.e. if it is dangerous enough for the govt to lock people down they would be doing it already for their own safety?

Sorry if I'm being pedantic and arguing as a devil's advocate on a number of issues, I'm genuinely interested in understanding the more 'american right wing' viewpoint and there are very few people to discuss that with in New Zealand.

We're interested in understanding the New Zealand left-wing viewpoint, in light of the fact that your approach has not worked:

New Zealand flattened the curve on the wrong axis… – CITIZEN FREE PRESS

German state health ministers call to extend state of emergency as COVID cases soar - Metro US

__________________________________________________ _____

Meanwhile, this passes for "Journalism" in the US: Dr. Fauci Just Issued This Urgent Warning to Vaccinated People

The little girl actually saw fit to quote this criminal saying:

The need for boosters doesn't mean that the vaccines don't work, however. On the contrary, Fauci stressed that he does not think that "we've given the full rein to prove what it is that you need to make them work," like additional doses. According to the virus expert, researchers did not "have to time" to do extensive studies to determine whether two doses would be better than three, as there was a pressing need to get vaccines out to people sooner rather than later, which was "life-saving for millions of people," he noted.

Does make sense to you, wal?

[Jovan Dragisic]

That is precisely what is going to happen to the un-vaccinated as they will be considered potential covid carriers.

Man, you are so dark and gloomy, and yet so remarkably sure of your predictions. Amazing.

[wal]

Does make sense to you, wal?

Yep, Perfectly, Crystal clear.

[Brian Harlin]

Regarding Polio:

Thread by @forrestmaready: "1. The polio story as you learned it is wrong. It’s one of the most often misunderstood sequence of events in the last two hundred years. I […]"

[3rdcoast_slope]

The prosecutor is telling the jury what Rittenhouse’s “friends” should have told him before he thought it was smart to walk across enemy lines. I don’t think he should be convicted, but he made a lot of dumb mistakes. The real villains are the politicians who let this happen. Rosenbaum should have never been allowed to be out there. The prosecution hasn’t done good, but they are having a good day today IMO.

It’s interesting all the drone and camera footage that was out…. They are always watching.

Before the hate, I’m not blaming Rittenhouse for killing them… I’m criticizing his dumb decisions before it.

[Mark Le Comte]

New Zealand has reduced the intensity of its lockdowns and cases have increased. There have been long periods were NZ had no covid cases and no internal restrictions at all. There was an attempt to eliminate delta when the first case arrived with a lockdown, however, the lockdown was eased before the cases were eliminated. From the numbers, I doubt whether the lockdown would have eliminated the disease even if it had been continued. Most health experts recommended against the reductions and the government reduced then anyway, presumably taking wider economic and political considerations into account . Where I live, the only restriction on me is that shops are meant to enforce mask wearing (which most but not all do). If a shop keeper asks me to put on a mask I either put on the mask or leave depending on the situation. I don't argue the merits with a shopkeeper. The government is consciously and publicly moving away from the elimination strategy.

Vaccinations are being strongly promoted, and mandated in some sectors (e.g. teachers, healthcare). Some employers are pursuing vaccine mandates on their own accord. My employer ran a survey about it, and I refused to disclose my vaccination status. IIRC, about 90% of the population have had a first dose, and around 75-80% two doses. Managed isolation for people coming into the country is being reduced (it was compulsory 2 weeks for everyone in managed facilities), and is planned to reduce to self-isolation. There have been recent protests, involving a few thousand people out of a total population of 5 million.

There have been a few interesting changes, like releasing pre-existing condition data for the very few fatalities (32) we have had with Covid, and explicit confirmation that the statistic reported is death with, not necessarily from, covid. A few cases actually had family members lobby for the death to attributed to covid.

Covid-19 Delta outbreak: Ministry of Health releases pre-existing conditions of deaths linked to virus - NZ Herald

New Zealand did, by and large, keep the first wave of Covid under control with relatively few/short lockdowns compared to many other countries. In this case being an isolated island nation with relatively sparse population gave NZ an advantage for that strategy being successful. As many predicted, it appears NZ only achieved a delay and now has to deal with the case numbers.

To clarify, I didn't vote for this government and I am more toward the right wing of New Zealand political spectrum (which is probably still left wing by american standards). There are many measures NZ took that I didn't agree with but were legal under our system.

[Mark Le Comte]

What is incorrectly characterized as “right wing” is an appreciation for freedom and our constitution as written. Common sense handed down through the ages.

Mark’s not right wing and the rest of the developed world has no understanding of freedom having surrendered freedom in exchange for perceived security.

So they jealously label conservative people with terms like “ right wing” as they look down the noses of the subjects they’ve let themselves become.

To be clear, I don't see 'right wing' as a perjorative term. If you would prefer conservative (or another term) I'm happy to change, though conservative can cover a wide range of views.

[Mark Le Comte]

What kind of a fool would lock the healthy members of a population in their homes, away from productive work, for months at a time, for a disease with an IFR of essentially ZERO? We quarantine the sick, not the healthy. You're just incapable of thinking past the propaganda, because they've done a good job.

You have expertly answered a different question to the one I asked. I have not actually defended a position, I'm simply asking you to clarify your position.

Because you keep bringing the low IFR into the discussion, I just want to be clear on what your position actually is. I understand that some of the actions the government has taken you consider would never be justifiable e.g. your position that vaccination and ivermectin/other treatments have been based on lies and self interest.

I just want to understand which of the interventions you think might be appropriate for an outbreak with a 'high enough' IFR - i.e. would lockdowns for the healthy ever be justifiable to attempt to limit potential spread of a really deadly disease, or would this always be a matter of personal responsibility?