Yep, I used to pretty handy, but have not shot anything for a decade..... I do have a 300 m range within 20 minutes of home.Originally Posted by David A. Rowe
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It's the gun in your hand that will save your life. Shot placement is what counts, and that is dependent on training.
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Yep, I used to pretty handy, but have not shot anything for a decade..... I do have a 300 m range within 20 minutes of home.
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Too bad, most of the guns I have were used.
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Yes sir. Have competed in NRL and PRS events. Current match gun is an AI-AT in 6.5 Creedmoor.
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With respect, I have to disagree on .308 as an excellent long range round. It's days have passed, and even with newer powders, it is tough for it to compete against the newer 6.5mm and even 6mm cartridges. Where the .308 excels is that the barrel life is considerably longer than newer 6.5's and 6's (7500 rds versus around 2500-3000rds). But with many rifles today now being sold, having factory tolerances that allow pre-fit and pre-chambered barrels to simply be screwed onto the action, barrel life is less of a consideration. Barrels have become just like the tires on your car; a consumable item.
The .308 (even the newer stuff) tends to go subsonic at around 900yds, some can go as far as 1100yds. The 6.5CM (and others) far exceed that. Understand, that as a bullet goes subsonic, it's stability is upset as it transitions back through the sound barrier...and predictable accuracy goes out the window.
To be fair, if you never expect to shoot past say 650yds, than the .308 will suit your needs. But, from experience, if you get the long range bug, 650yds will be your starting range where things get interesting. That's where reading the wind does begin to test your ability, and not just that of the rifle and it's ammunition.
There are a host of available rifles that can get you into the game; Tikka CTR, Tikka Tac A1, Bergara, APO, Howa...in today's market, there are a lot of options (due to the increased popularity of LR shooting). Figure $1000-$2500 for an entry level rifle (not including glass, mounts, bipod, bags, spare mags, etc.).
Glass is another area where today's market is a consumer's dream. There used to be only a few options between Tier 1 glass (read: $3500-$5000) and very basic (but worthy) fixed power scopes. Today however, there are options at whatever price point you may have, from $800 on up to $4600. It really depends on how much, how far, and how often you use your gear, and how much you're able/willing to spend. If this is just a square, one way, range queen rig, then you can get by with a lot lower cost gear. If something goes down, the worst you have is a bad day at the range. If you're plunking down $300 match fees, $1500 is travel expenses and another $200 in ammo, to attend a national level competition like NRL or PRS (assuming not a local competition), then you'll likely want something a little more dependable. If you plan your life depending on it, well then, you get the idea.
Some entry level scopes worth considering are the Vortex PST Gen 2 (even the new 5-25x Strike Eagle will work, though less robust than the PST), Burris XTR III (II's work, but the glass is...pedestrian. And that's being generous), and also give the Leupold Mk 5 a look (without illummination, they are very competitively priced and are very robust). I have at one time or another used all of these scopes, and so can speak from experience. Currently running a few Gen 2 Razors (Vortex) and about to move up to a ZCO (once I get over my current night vision kick/build out).
As you probably already realize, long range shooting is not an inexpensive hobby. And it is a sport where the higher the cost, the more diminished the returns on capability for that cost as you reach the upper end. You have to decide what fits your budget and needs.
In closing, I offer this (unsolicited, so take it for that):
1. Buy a decent intro rifle in a current chambering (BTW, 6.5 Creedmoor factory ammo can be had for substantially less than .308 Match ammo). Tikka, Howa, Bergara (with a slight hesitation).
2. Buy a decent scope, and don't scrimp! The scope is the weakest link in a long range rifle system. And for the love of God, get it in Mils (not MOA). A base ten system is much easier to learn on, than a fractional system like MOA.
3. Consider a chassis system of some sort (preferrably one that uses AICS magazines). It'll alleviate any warping/flex from loading the bipod on a factory tupperware stock.
4. Download, and learn to use a ballistic solver. This will allow you to learn much more quickly, and put rounds on steel with a much higher success rate, than starting with no data, and generating a DOPE from past engagements.
Humbly, I'd suggest also, go over to Snipershide.com and peruse the forums. There is literally a wealth of information over there for new LR shooters. Gear, rifles, ammo, ballistics; it's all there for reading and consuming. It is the benchmark for LR shooting information on the web. Just be advised, it can get rough and tumbled there at times, but we tend to let things sort themselves out if possible before stepping (unless there's a clear violation of the site rules).
I have been long range shooting (off and on now) for the last 25years. The sport, technology and understanding of external ballistics has changed dramatically over the last 10-15 years. We have better rifles, ammo and information out there than we did 20 yrs ago. I submit (humbly), that you use it to your advantage if you desire to be able to smack a steel targets at long range, from a cold bore, or second shot follow up, under time/stress. It requires practice and proficiency, but there's no greater feeling than letting a bullet loose on a 1200+ yd target, and hearing/seeing the impact 2 secs later...
Suppressors is a whole other topic...as is AR's (and their chamberings).
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I would point out that it's likely a good candidate still for new precision shooters (500-800m) because it's cheap and plentiful, comparatively, but you undoubtedly have a tremendous amount of precision experience to draw on. I think the Army even kept the 7.62 NATO around specifically because of that reason.
Alternatively... how do you feel about the new 300 magnum and 338 AMR for the new sniper platform?
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Yes, and no (regarding the 308 as a good candidate for a new shooter). Yes, the ammo is plentiful and readily available...but a lot of it is not what you would shoot at long range. For a new shooter, especially one not already well trained in the fundamentals, the recoil of a .308 can be an issue if the rifle is not a heavy, and you're trying to shoot from compromised positions (as much of the LR competitions are shot from). It's why you're seeing some ridiculous weights of some comp rifles (up to almost 28lbs!), because with recoil, you can't spot your own impact (which is critical for engaging multiple targets in a time crunch, and alone). FWIW, even SOCOM (not that that really means anything honestly) has begun to switch over to the 6.5/.20 caliber (6.5 Creedmoor now, and in some SOF units they've already been using .260 Rem).
As to the .300 magnums (300 Norma, 300 PRC, 338 Lapua Magnum, etc.) they are a tool, but for specific applications (usually anti-material). Most new shooters can not deal with the recoil without developing a bad flinch, or really bad follow through. Let's face it, firing more than 10-20 rds is painful, and the concussion from a braked rifle is pretty substantial. Suppressed it isn't as bad, but again, your fundamentals need to be on point, as the recoil impulse is slower, requiring stricter attention to follow through and loading of the rifle/bipod.
All of this is to say, as a "sniper platform" any and all of these cartridges have a time and place. But for shooting out to 3/4 of mile, most big bore magnums are significant over kill. A shooter is better served shooting something they can train well on, can afford and gives an enhanced ballistic performance both in trajectory and in down range performance.
Time will tell, as I have a feeling that the next major conflict we find ourselves, mechanized transport may not be as available as it is/was in the dirt belt region. Those big bore cartridges weigh a ton (never mind the rifles themselves). It's kind of like aircraft carriers; they're great for beating up on some third world countries, but against a peer adversary...not so much. Same with these large, heavy, ungainly rifles chambered for these large cartridges. Great for sitting on a mountain top, where air support is on call if you get compromised, but not so good for sneaking away after taking a shot at an adversary that can track (sonically) where the shot came from.
The future is really beyond what we see today in firearms (IMHO). Hybrid cases and much higher pressure rounds (and the rifles needed to handle that increased pressure) is what is coming down the pipe, and are needed for a peer adversary that wears somewhat comparable body armor that our military wears. It's why you see companies like Sig Sauer releasing their "Sig Fury" ammunition and rifles. But I digress...
The .308 can work if that's all you have, but there are better short action cartridges available to shooters these days; so why hamstring yourself? The US Army sticks with the .308 because they literally have millions and millions of rounds in stock pile. Also, the nightmare of re-certifying the training ranges (and their impact areas) is just a nightmare to even think about. Big Green has rarely ever made a choice on a standard cartridge based on purely performance; actually far from that. As to long range cartridges...believe it or not, the civilian community is actually leading the change, not the military.
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On point, man. Thanks. I got to mess around on the range a few times with the scout snipers, but definitely wasn't my forte. Good to learn something new, and even now it's hard to realize how much my own experience has been outpaced by the rapid advancements in TTPs and tech.
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So I've been a Glock/AR guy in terms of firearms my whole life. But something has come over me over the last 6 months or so- does anyone have any recommendations for a single action revolver? Seems like Ruger pretty much owns the market with the Blackhawk/Vaquero unless you are going to spend $1,500+. Am I wrong?
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