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Thread: Books on Libertarianism - Starting Strength Radio

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Correct. But it does require that you know what the fuck you're talking about, and unless you've been here and spent time here, your only source of information on "Racial Tension in the US" is from biased sources who are apparently very good at their job. Now, stop typing about things you know nothing about.
    My average day looks nothing like with the media portrays America to be. It surprises me that we apply this monolithic representation of a country so large and diverse. We can't just blanket the country as one thing or another. It belongs between individual people and who they interact with. The media starts the fire, then they show up with their camera asking "how did this happen."

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nockian View Post
    Indeed. Libertarians believe in a fantasy world where somehow, everyone, does the right thing including the authorities. A free for all. Essentially Woodstock.
    Libertarian is a pretty broad camp, so any critique devolves into some no true Scotsman argument unless you put another defining word before it.

    There is certainly a camp of them that falls for exactly the same delusion of the Marxist who thinks that somehow the system is the problem that is restraining the individual from just oozing goodness. As if all the bad people have migrated into politics and the rest are just.....dumb?...weak?.....?, but otherwise great people.

    They fail to notice that the libertarian utopia lasts about 15 minutes before the next system is put in place.

    A lot of ideas put forth by Libertarians are just not feasible right now. They worked in an era where you could essentially mind you own business and, more importantly, avoid having others minding your business, but that real estate is rare and costly.

  3. #43
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    How much government do you want, George?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    How much government do you want, George?
    What does that have to do with anything? Might as well ask what super powers I want.

    You will get government regardless of how much you want it or what you call it.

    The questions are how much do we need and of what kind. And I don't think that that is some fixed answer. It depends on the people involved and other practical variables that change from place to place and time to time.

    I personally was rather fond of the original US constitution and the idea of 13 nations united voluntarily to a fairly impotent federal government. That seems to have gone really well.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Christiansen View Post
    The natural state of nature is violence. There is always an overseeing body. They may be your neighbors or the police state, but someone will eventually try to clamp down on what they disapprove of. They will only be deterred by threats of or actual violence. So people have organized into groups to have enough violence on their to deter violence against them.

    The exception is people reasoning with one another and respecting each other's rights or their own lack of rights over another. this is the rare exception.

    All of human and animal history demonstrates this pattern. Most live and let living is just neglect due to it being the path of least resistance. That's a lot of why it appears that there are more assholes and busybodies around. There's not. There's just easier ways to be one.

    Libertarianism may indeed be the morally correct position, but appeals to nature for authority are absolute nonsense.
    The natural state of nature is indeed violence. It is also scarcity and poverty and want and need. This has no bearing on how interactions between individuals are carried out.

    Nothing of what you have written here bears in any way on what I stated in the original post. Go read it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nockian View Post
    Indeed. Libertarians believe in a fantasy world where somehow, everyone, does the right thing including the authorities. A free for all. Essentially Woodstock.
    You really don't know what you're talking about. Dave Smith just stated on his most recent podcast with Michael Malice that libertarianism is completely not this. It is about telling people precisely what they can and cannot do. Rules, norms, borders, etc. This is basis for the whole system.

    I find it interesting, however, that you seemingly concede that "the authorities" are subject to human nature, who you advocate for, and thus can't be trusted.

    This is really not that difficult, guys.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Christiansen View Post
    The questions are how much do we need and of what kind.
    Okay, George. You'd rather just bitch. I understand.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Christiansen View Post
    What does that have to do with anything? Might as well ask what super powers I want.

    You will get government regardless of how much you want it or what you call it.

    The questions are how much do we need and of what kind. And I don't think that that is some fixed answer. It depends on the people involved and other practical variables that change from place to place and time to time.

    I personally was rather fond of the original US constitution and the idea of 13 nations united voluntarily to a fairly impotent federal government. That seems to have gone really well.
    The population and entire way of life of the USA in 2020 is so utterly different to that of 1789. The entire system of social values are different, work, the economy, the monetary system, education, even the way the populations speak. In every conceivable way, the USA is totally different now from the late 18th century.

    My earlier point was that the form of a federal government that includes so many different races, cultures attempting to live under a single code of laws, requires a large and all-encompassing government to make it work. In the 21st century, business and various other concerns work with government - through visible co-operation and behind-doors lobbying - to direct the nature of government in the US.

    I don't know enough about Libertarianism in all it's guises, but i suspect that many of it's adherents are 'We The People' romanticists who cannot see that circumstances have left the viability of Libertarianism long behind. Whenever I witness purely emotional connections to an ideology or worldview, i have to suspect it's legitimacy. Frankly, i've yet to hear a coherent, rational explanation for Libertarianism that is grounded in the modern realities of the 21st century. But, then again, I haven't really looked.

    I stand by the prediction that the USA will, in time, fragment, and a handful of sovereign territories, of vary degrees of civilisation will - at different times, and with differing degrees of manipulation from outside - become into existence. But then again, sometimes it appears as if things in the USA are very difficult to predict in the longer (50-200 years) term.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satch12879 View Post
    The natural state of nature is indeed violence. It is also scarcity and poverty and want and need. This has no bearing on how interactions between individuals are carried out.
    Not only completely false, but also completely impossible.

    You might as well try and say the fact that we are mortal has no bearing on how we live. Even if you forget for a moment the rest of the world is structured around this fact and shapes every interaction...except in the comic book world of Libertarians using fake people and fake worlds to form their ideas like it's some D&D world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Okay, George. You'd rather just bitch. I understand.
    How am I just bitching?

    You asked an irrelevant question and I clarified what the appropriate question was. How is that bitching?

    And my bitching is contrasted by you doing what then?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayrsson View Post
    My earlier point was that the form of a federal government that includes so many different races, cultures attempting to live under a single code of laws, requires a large and all-encompassing government to make it work. In the 21st century, business and various other concerns work with government - through visible co-operation and behind-doors lobbying - to direct the nature of government in the US.
    You seem very concerned about race and culture. The US *is* divided very sharply along cultural lines, but not in the way you're arguing. It corresponds (pretty roughly in all these examples) to a clash of rural vs. urban, indvidualist vs. collectivist, religious vs. post-modernist/agnostic/anti-theist, and liberal (in the older sense) vs. authoritarian. But in every one of these examples, there are stark exceptions. Some of the most hard-left (like, actual Marxists, not just left-leaning Democrats) people I know are from isolated rural communities on the Iron Range. I know plenty of atheist Republicans and large-L Libertarians, and plenty of devoutly religious liberal Democrats. Likewise there are authoritarians on both sides of the political spectrum; they just have very different focuses. For example, you have a governor who shuts down private business in the name of public health while another clamps down on graffiti artists in the name of public safety (note that I'm not equating the two).

    I think the most clear delineation is between individualists and collectivists, although even there you'll find some gray areas. But that divide is one that transcends race, culture, religion, and regional differences.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayrsson View Post
    ...
    My earlier point was that the form of a federal government that includes so many different races, cultures attempting to live under a single code of laws, requires a large and all-encompassing government to make it work. In the 21st century, business and various other concerns work with government - through visible co-operation and behind-doors lobbying - to direct the nature of government in the US....
    ...I stand by the prediction that the USA will, in time, fragment, and a handful of sovereign territories, of vary degrees of civilisation will - at different times, and with differing degrees of manipulation from outside - become into existence. But then again, sometimes it appears as if things in the USA are very difficult to predict in the longer (50-200 years) term.
    That is a good point. The scope of government, its policing powers and regulations must greatly increase in response to any sort of multiculturalism or diversity. In order to keep all of these separate interest groups aligned, stable and adhering to the same code of conduct, government presence must increase tremendously.

    Morality is relative. Loyalty and community ties decrease as population density increases, competition for finite resources, especially land, increases or multiculturalism and diversity increases. When there is not one majority group, these special interest groups compete with each other. There are two paths in this situation: stability imposed by the heavy hand of government or fragmentation.

    Wasn't this the original goal of Russia's subversion campaign? To force the United States into either fragmentation or Soviet style police-state socialism?

    Would there have even been even a .1% chance of maintaining the integrity of Yugoslavia under a system of Libertarianism and constitutional reform?

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