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Thread: Books on Libertarianism - Starting Strength Radio

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayrsson View Post
    The population and entire way of life of the USA in 2020 is so utterly different to that of 1789. The entire system of social values are different, work, the economy, the monetary system, education, even the way the populations speak. In every conceivable way, the USA is totally different now from the late 18th century.
    This generic statement sheds no light on the degree to which government needs to be involved in the individual's life. Time has passed = Society has grown and evolved =/= more government control is needed.

    If anything, the US government has evolved by explicitly guaranteeing even more freedoms to its population as time has gone by. See: amendments to the US constitution.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ayrsson View Post
    My earlier point was that the form of a federal government that includes so many different races, cultures attempting to live under a single code of laws, requires a large and all-encompassing government to make it work. In the 21st century, business and various other concerns work with government - through visible co-operation and behind-doors lobbying - to direct the nature of government in the US.
    Can you define "all-encompassing government"? And explain why this is required to "make it all work"? Because aside from the ridiculous "emergency response" of the mask mandate, the presence of the federal, state, county, and city governments in the heavily multicultural city in which I live is pretty damn minimal, and we all get along pretty well. Imagine the crazy notion that if people are given equal opportunity to pursue their own happiness then they have no logical reason to quarrel over anything on the basis of cultural or racial differences. Insanity!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayrsson View Post
    I stand by the prediction that the USA will, in time, fragment, and a handful of sovereign territories, of vary degrees of civilisation will - at different times, and with differing degrees of manipulation from outside - become into existence. But then again, sometimes it appears as if things in the USA are very difficult to predict in the longer (50-200 years) term.
    Remember how it did that once in 1861? And how it reunified 4 years later? In spite of the tremendous implications of living in a union in which a major foundation for the economy of the Southern states was on the verge of being abolished? Clearly the notion of unity has more power than that.

    And remember how cell phones used to be Science Fiction? Accurately predicted anything as far as 200 years out seems pretty preposterous to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayrsson View Post
    I don't know enough about Libertarianism in all it's guises, but i suspect that many of it's adherents are 'We The People' romanticists who cannot see that circumstances have left the viability of Libertarianism long behind. Whenever I witness purely emotional connections to an ideology or worldview, i have to suspect it's legitimacy. Frankly, i've yet to hear a coherent, rational explanation for Libertarianism that is grounded in the modern realities of the 21st century. But, then again, I haven't really looked.
    Ah, the viability argument. So people are not allowed to have a model for their political beliefs because you have decided that it doesn't match up with your version of reality. All those people who vehemently disagree with things like abortion and gun control should just shut up because they oppose some form form of "how it really is already" or "would actually be in reality". Got it.

    I am not an avid Libertarian, but I do value liberty for myself and my fellow citizens pretty highly. The only "problem" with liberty is how we reconcile each individual's liberty with that of others, i.e., am I free to murder you if I choose? Or does that impact your freedom? Probably.

    The non-aggression principle seems to form the basis for this reconciliation, and seems to be a good starting point. If you start with the basis that it's morally wrong (morality per se being relative, but an agreed upon ideal by society) to seek to aggressively or forcefully seize or damage another's property, including their physical body, then pretty commonly agreed upon criminal acts such as murder, rape, and theft logically fit in to this model.

    Again, I'm not even much of a Libertarian, but even a cursory review of Wikipedia articles reveals that it's not as naive and misguided as some people seem to be portraying it.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satch12879 View Post




    You really don't know what you're talking about. Dave Smith just stated on his most recent podcast with Michael Malice that libertarianism is completely not this. It is about telling people precisely what they can and cannot do. Rules, norms, borders, etc. This is basis for the whole system.

    I find it interesting, however, that you seemingly concede that "the authorities" are subject to human nature, who you advocate for, and thus can't be trusted.

    This is really not that difficult, guys.
    ....It’s pretty hard to keep up with what Libertarianism is, because no one ever defines it.

    Who is telling people what to do ? Who decides ? On what principle ? It’s so completely wishy washy.

    Of course everyone is prone to error, but that doesn’t mean that we aren’t also capable of complete accuracy. Strictly delimiting a single Government to the defence of individual rights (including itself) as it’s only proper role allows no slope, no re-interpretations.

    Still never had an answer to my original question. Figures.

  3. #53
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    This is a weird ideology or whatever it is. Libertarianism started out as a left wing anarchist school, then the Americans co-opted it and turned it into a free market capitalist school, using economic ideas conceived by the Austro-Hungarian nobility at a time when industrialization was destroying the foundations of that particular empire. Not that Austria has done terribly bad with ignoring the von whatever dudes. Mind you, it started getting traction in the US just as it was becoming clear that the next US president will have to go off gold and have the dollar be freely printed as the world's money. I'm all for such things though, I was just never able to figure out who builds and maintains the roads, power lines and such shit. Like, if you do away with he state completely, then sure, communities with economic ties will have no choice but to build and maintain infrastructure, but if you leave it in place? Maybe if you give the infrastructure enough freedom, it will self replicate?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nockian View Post
    .... because no one ever defines it.
    Who is telling people what to do ? Who decides ? On what principle ? It’s so completely wishy washy....
    People don't need commands from a higher authority to figure out what to do. Who tells cows what to do? How do those creatures live without the government telling them how to live?

    The individuals decide according to what they think is best for themselves and their community.

    On the principles of free will and individual responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovan Dragisic View Post
    This is a weird ideology or whatever it is. Libertarianism started out as a left wing anarchist school, then the Americans co-opted it and turned it into a free market capitalist school, using economic ideas conceived by the Austro-Hungarian nobility at a time when industrialization was destroying the foundations of that particular empire. Not that Austria has done terribly bad with ignoring the von whatever dudes. Mind you, it started getting traction in the US just as it was becoming clear that the next US president will have to go off gold and have the dollar be freely printed as the world's money. I'm all for such things though, I was just never able to figure out who builds and maintains the roads, power lines and such shit. Like, if you do away with he state completely, then sure, communities with economic ties will have no choice but to build and maintain infrastructure, but if you leave it in place? Maybe if you give the infrastructure enough freedom, it will self replicate?
    Libertarianism is the founding principle of America; The term people use for it has changed, but the philosophy has remained the same. We can't colloquially call it "Classical Liberalism" or "Liberalism" anymore, because people have been indoctrinated into associating those terms with communism or socialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yngvi View Post
    Libertarianism is the founding principle of America; The term people use for it has changed, but the philosophy has remained the same. We can't colloquially call it "Classical Liberalism" or "Liberalism" anymore, because people have been indoctrinated into associating those terms with communism or socialism.
    You most certainty can't call what people are now calling classical liberalism classical liberalism if you want to be even remotely correct. But that would entail people reading everything - actually anything - from John Locke to John Stuart Mill. By reading, I don't mean Wikipedia digests, I mean the actual books. This whole "libertarian" or "classical liberal" bullshit that has been infecting the Anglo-American world and by proxy all the countries which strive to emulate the US is really just a somewhat capable piece of propaganda by the non-working classes trying and succeeding to a remarkable extent to have the tax payers provide them with the monetary, infrastructural and legal framework for making even more money off of not working. It is just another face of communism.

    The best book on libertarianism is Keynes' General Theory, that's my take on the title of the thread. I will let you gentlemen debate the merits of personal liberty and state intervention without butting in any more.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yngvi View Post
    People don't need commands from a higher authority to figure out what to do. Who tells cows what to do? How do those creatures live without the government telling them how to live?

    The individuals decide according to what they think is best for themselves and their community.

    On the principles of free will and individual responsibility.

    Oh dear. “The individuals decide according to what they think is best for themselves and their COMMUNITY.“

    So many contradictions.

    Cows are not creatures of reason, they don’t require a social code because all they need do is to much grass.

    It’s really pointless arguing at this level of intellectual debate. If you aren’t even aware of the clear difference between animals and humans :-/

    I’m now exiting this pointless discussion. The last few posts should have indicated to anyone with a smattering of reasoning just how I’ll founded, scatty and whimsical libertarianism is. I shall leave it to the cows to explain it to you.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nockian View Post
    Oh dear. “The individuals decide according to what they think is best for themselves and their COMMUNITY.“
    ...So many contradictions.
    Cows are not creatures of reason, they don’t require a social code because all they need do is to much grass.
    It’s really pointless arguing at this level of intellectual debate. If you aren’t even aware of the clear difference between animals and humans :-/
    I’m now exiting this pointless discussion. The last few posts should have indicated to anyone with a smattering of reasoning just how I’ll founded, scatty and whimsical libertarianism is. I shall leave it to the cows to explain it to you.
    You are exactly right. What was I thinking.

    Humans are not animals. How silly of me.

    Maybe humans are ethereal spirits or genderless cybernetic automatons trapped in a computerized matrix.

    Best I leave these questions to the great intellects in the government. They will tell me what to do if I just have enough faith in their omnipotence.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yngvi View Post
    You are exactly right. What was I thinking.

    Humans are not animals. How silly of me.

    Maybe humans are ethereal spirits or genderless cybernetic automatons trapped in a computerized matrix.

    Best I leave these questions to the great intellects in the government. They will tell me what to do if I just have enough faith in their omnipotence.
    Where did I say humans weren’t animals ?
    Which Government ? What questions ?
    Why don’t you actually read what I write rather than creating an imaginary narrative ?

    Man is the RATIONAL animal.

    The proper role of GOVERNMENT is to protect and defend INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS and it should be strictly delimited to do nothing else but that. This was in the original constitution and bill of rights laid down by the founding fathers who created a REPUBLIC of LIMITED GOVERNMENT just for that very purpose, recognising the NATURE of MAN was his capacity to REASON and the need to be FREE to exercise that capacity as an INDIVIDUAL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovan Dragisic View Post
    This is a weird ideology or whatever it is. Libertarianism started out as a left wing anarchist school, then the Americans co-opted it and turned it into a free market capitalist school, using economic ideas conceived by the Austro-Hungarian nobility at a time when industrialization was destroying the foundations of that particular empire. Not that Austria has done terribly bad with ignoring the von whatever dudes. Mind you, it started getting traction in the US just as it was becoming clear that the next US president will have to go off gold and have the dollar be freely printed as the world's money. I'm all for such things though, I was just never able to figure out who builds and maintains the roads, power lines and such shit. Like, if you do away with he state completely, then sure, communities with economic ties will have no choice but to build and maintain infrastructure, but if you leave it in place? Maybe if you give the infrastructure enough freedom, it will self replicate?
    Yes, Jovan, libertarians have never though about "who will build the roads." You got us. The Achilles's Heel. Devastating critique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nockian View Post
    Where did I say humans weren’t animals ?...
    You argued the dichotomy here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nockian View Post
    ... you aren’t even aware of the clear difference between animals and humans :-/
    Quote Originally Posted by Nockian View Post
    Man is the RATIONAL animal.
    Please do not stereotype like this. I have known many Cows who were more rational than many men.

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