Are training injuries sustained by SS authors "proof" that the method is imperfect? Are training injuries sustained by SS authors "proof" that the method is imperfect? - Page 2

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Thread: Are training injuries sustained by SS authors "proof" that the method is imperfect?

  1. #11
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    These methods and these exercises and this programming will, given enough time and enough loading, inevitably lead to injury, minor or otherwise.

    This contrasts strongly with other, "perfect" training systems. Perhaps you could name a few.

  2. #12
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    Exactly, doc, injury is a constant across any exercise system that induces physical stressors. Even a high rate of injury could just be a sign that that system is more popular, so you would need a formula of number of adherents divided by injuries than statistically adjust the type of injury with more common injuries being weighted less to even come up with Injury rate for a given type of program.

    Anyway, I am sure SS is pretty low as they at least recommend you actually learn the lifts before doing them

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathon Sullivan View Post
    These methods and these exercises and this programming will, given enough time and enough loading, inevitably lead to injury, minor or otherwise.

    This contrasts strongly with other, "perfect" training systems. Perhaps you could name a few.
    Finding the "perfect" system . Time would be better spent looking for a leprechaun.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    An interesting question. We'll ask the board. Do you drive a car?
    I drive, and I see the parallel drawn. The difference might be that I cannot control the cars around me, but I should be able to totally control a lift. I understand that tears occur from over-extended eccentric lift portions, so knowing this, I can definitely be sure to control the weight as it lowers. BUT, since you know this, and you are THE lift expert, why do you have injuries?

    It's getting a little foggy, so if it isn't clear, I admire what you've built and am grateful what you have taught me. I will use your method until I progress past it, and I recognize it is the right way. I am wondering if I should expect to be injured, at some point. If it is essentially beyond my control, if I intend to lift heavy enough weights for a long enough period of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suwannee Dave View Post
    I am closing in on 72 years of age, so maybe not representative of most SS lifters. I think most injuries are the result of adding too much weight to the bar, or doing too many sets, trying to push progress too soon. Remember that slow progress is still progress. You probably have years left. The only way to speed things up is with anabolic drugs.
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchless View Post
    If you've read Practical Programming, you should have seen the chart towards the back in the "Special Populations" section on training youths. On that chart, you will find that training injuries are very, very rare though more common than powerlifting competition injuries. I was surprised by this in two ways:
    1. Given the crazy things done to exploit the limits of the rules of powerlifting (gear, odd positions to limit the range of motion, etc.), I expected more injuries.
    2. Given the idiocy I've witnessed in the gym -- usually on the bench press -- I expected more injuries.

    Life is not a risk-free endeavor, no matter how much people want it to be. Attempts to mitigate risk require resources (cost) and usually create the opportunity for different risks (moral hazard). All in all, if one trains in accordance with the program as laid out in Starting Strength one will train with minimal risk. I highly doubt that the novice trainee will be strong enough to tear a pec or rupture a bicep tendon doing The Program. However, as training advances beyond the Novice stage and the weights get heavy that all changes. The harder and further any of us pushes our bodies, the closer we are to injury. Someone will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but I know of no device that can measure how near one is to his physical limit.

    What that means is the inevitably someone will rupture a bicep tendon doing speed deadlifts, or tear a pec on a bench press, or rupture a patellar tendon under a squat. These are things that can happen during normal training -- not a silly tandem barbell curl or rappelling with sketchy ropes like Calum Van Moger. But for most of us, that isn't going to happen either because we're lucky or we just aren't pushing that hard. It is, in my opinion, good to think about these things and humbling to remember. The reward, however, far outweighs the risk.

    But that wasn't your original question :-)

    The question of imperfections in the Starting Strength method is a far more complicated one, as evidenced by other treads on the forum. It requires the follow up questions of "perfect for what?" and "perfect for whom?" The Starting Strength method is primarily for training novices. Beyond the novice stage, the principals behind the Starting Strength method still apply but things slowly become more complicate; more training variables are manipulated on different schedules to drive a strength adaptation. I don't at what point your training could be considered "beyond" the Starting Strength method; someone else can answer that. But I would observe that the training injuries I'm aware of in the Starting Strength authors took place well after their novice period. I'm pretty sure Andy Baker was training in the womb.

    Based on what I know, I don't think any changes to the Starting Strength method will reduce the already small chance of training injury. That's one of the reasons I use it with my father, who has muscular dystrophy. I don't know that he'll ever squat 225 and I don't think he'll ever press 100, but he is moving better and is slowly regaining some of what he lost when he suddenly cut weight in a desperate attempt to avoid type 2 diabetes (it failed).
    Thank you both for the thoughtful responses. It's likely my form was imperfect all those years ago (shit, it probably still is), it's possible I progressed too much too soon. "Imperfect" was probably the wrong word choice. Since I know how a poorly-rehabbed injury can affect other aspects of life (for example, for whatever reason, this injury behind my shoulder causes deep breathing to hurt a little bit), as much as I'd love to bench 405 and squat 5 and have the gusto to stay the path, I'd rather not debilitate myself more than I need to - should lifters expect semi-serious to serious injury, at one time or another?

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    You will get injured, because it is impossible to control all the variables even if you want to very badly.

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    Even concrete cracks.

    In fact, concrete always cracks.

    Are we going to stop building?

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    Brodie Butland is offline Starting Strength Coach
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamies33 View Post
    But this leaves me with a fundamental question: Do these methods inevitably lead to injury? And if so, is that a flaw in the design?
    I would argue that the flaw is in the human body, which is notoriously ill-equipped for immortality or indestructibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brodie Butland View Post
    I would argue that the flaw is in the human body, which is notoriously ill-equipped for immortality or indestructibility.
    I've been thinking about registering a complaint with the manufacturer on this issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brodie Butland View Post
    I would argue that the flaw is in the human body, which is notoriously ill-equipped for immortality or indestructibility.
    Clever.

    The body certainly is destructible and immortality wasn't questioned. I was wondering how much destruction is implicit in the pursuit of strength.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamies33 View Post
    Clever.

    The body certainly is destructible and immortality wasn't questioned. I was wondering how much destruction is implicit in the pursuit of strength.
    Be smart and minimize it. Avoid lifting and you'll get injured because of that too. Your body will break sometimes. It does that, it's made to do that and recover from it.

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