Andrew Lewis: The Materials Science of the Barbell Andrew Lewis: The Materials Science of the Barbell

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Thread: Andrew Lewis: The Materials Science of the Barbell

  1. #1
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    Default Andrew Lewis: The Materials Science of the Barbell

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    Extremely well done article.
    In the pre-Covidian era I worked closely with structural engineers on rigging designs in the entertainment industry, so Iíve come to appreciate a thorough structural analysis, and this one hits all the bases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Watson View Post
    Extremely well done article.
    In the pre-Covidian era I worked closely with structural engineers on rigging designs in the entertainment industry, so I’ve come to appreciate a thorough structural analysis, and this one hits all the bases.
    I was very deliberate in my ordering and thoroughness of the article, and my editors helped a great deal as well (Rip and Dr. Buddy Damm). Thank you for the appreciation.

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    Not to geek out too much, but a lot going on with this statement:

    Similarly, Olympic weightlifting bars are marketed as having "good whip" for the purpose of Olympic lifting. Some Olympic lifters claim that they are able to use the whip of the bar to elastically store energy and then redirect the stored energy upwards on the extension of the whip. There is no video of a lifter squatting, cleaning, jerking, snatching, or pushing as fast as the elastic rebound of a bar. There are countless slow-motion videos showing this fact. I see no evidence for the claim that any human is capable of elastically loading the bar and rebounding in time with the elastic rebound.
    yeah, I don't know about that, or if one could say that as so definitive as it is put in the article.
    Some of the "bounce" lifters experience in the bottom of clean or at the bottom of the jerk dip is not solely due to their nervous system activating muscle fibers....RFD or reaction time, some of that is just "mechanical" bounce or stretch of tissues.
    I could see that timing with the bar bounce and aiding the upward motion, especially with lifters who quickly bounce their jerks, the way Rip advocates.

    I'll agree that this idea of the lifter consciously "timing" the bar-bounce is way oversold, and doesn't even apply to light-moderate weights.
    Its just an artifact of what happens when you do it with a sharp shallow dip-bounce.
    But it seems a whippy bar might have advantages over a severally stiff bar in this regard.

    In addition, oscillating the bar at the top of the lift is against the rules.
    Yes and no.
    Per rules, the bar can still be oscillating at the top of the clean, before the jerk. The lifter just cannot 'add' to it, or create it.
    That is, the lifter has to become motion-less at the top of the clean, but the bar could still be oscillating.
    Many jerk immediately upon standing, waiting only a fraction of second; you do not have to wait for the bar to come to a stop.
    Ilya Ilyin is a good example of this. Alex Lee immediately jerks upon standing; the bar is still clearly moving.
    Many others have commented that this is done to take advantage of the bar bounce.

    Also, Tian Tao has been known to bounce the bar before the dip and just not get caught, its definitely an intentional thing he does.
    You can also take a big breath and over do a tightening of your posture to create a slight bar bounce....(it looks like your taking your breath, but its an intentional move to create bar-bounce)

    It should seem obvious from this analysis, therefore, that a stiff bar is preferable to a more elastic bar.
    For all of the same reasons the author enumerates that the deadlift is easier with a whippy bar (off the floor) would similarly apply to the clean, or no?
    You can get up to a point of greater-leverage-advantage, quicker with a whippy bar.

    Also, there is just the basic idea you should train with the SAME equipment that you will compete with

    The men's comp bars are 28.0 mm, women's 25mm.
    The width of the comp. Olympic bar helps as far as grip, especially in the snatch with smaller hands.

    If you've trained the Olympic lifts a lot and re-catch your lifts (jerks, BTN anything, hang cleans and hang snatches), the whippier bar don't beat-up you nearly as bad.
    I know, I know .... a bunch of pussies, I know. But over hundreds of lifts in a week that add up.
    I would definitely not recommend a stiff bar for a full-time Olympic lifter; for power-cleans 5x3 once a week its fine.

    The Olympic lifters of the 70s, who performed the quick lifts with cast iron plates, showcase that this can be done.
    IIRC, the wider deep dish iron plates were created to spread-out the "damaging forces" to the floor and plates...and was in the 60's or something.

    1970 Euros. Check out the 15 kgs (aka "35 bastardization"). Same thing, the whole sleeve is nearly loaded out.
    1970 European Weightlifting Championships. - YouTube

    1972 Olympics. With the comp collars only 225 almost loads out the entire sleeve like what we have now in the modern day
    Weightlifting 1972 Olympics Munich men's Super-Heavyweight - YouTube

    There's also some other considerations to whippiness.
    You'll see considerable bar deflection in the horizontal plane with some lifters at hip contact, during the explosion phase of the pull.
    Plates will shutter, not up-and-down, but side-to-side right at final extension.
    By way of comparison, think about that 1" or so of deflection in say a 405# deadlift,
    and that here the bar goes through roughly that same amount of deflection, but in only a few milliseconds....that's some considerable force.
    This might allow a certain level of forgiveness in the bar path, and allow the lifter's COM and the bar's COM to mesh closer together without the subsequent bar-loop out away .... something to think about for sure.

    Dimas:



    Just food for thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Watson View Post
    Extremely well done article.
    In the pre-Covidian era I worked closely with structural engineers on rigging designs in the entertainment industry, so I’ve come to appreciate a thorough structural analysis, and this one hits all the bases.
    John, who did you work with? I wanted to do this when I got out of school, but hit a dead end on finding practices that did entertainment rigging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satch12879 View Post
    John, who did you work with? I wanted to do this when I got out of school, but hit a dead end on finding practices that did entertainment rigging.

    Various companies in NYC. The last one I was Director of Rigging for an event lighting/audio/video company that also worked with decor, I oversaw all aspects of rigging/safety full time for the entire company for 14 years.
    I became financially independent and left the company back in Nov of '19.

    You need to be in a large city to do any volume of work exclusively rigging. You'll also want an ETCP certification and whatever lift, OSHA, rope access certs you can get. Most riggers I know started as stagehands, lighting, A/V, etc.

    The entire industry is dead right now, due to the way the pandemic is managed; with the closure of all public events and gatherings, except protests/riots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
    yeah, I don't know about that, or if one could say that as so definitive as it is put in the article.
    Some of the "bounce" lifters experience in the bottom of clean or at the bottom of the jerk dip is not solely due to their nervous system activating muscle fibers....RFD or reaction time, some of that is just "mechanical" bounce or stretch of tissues.
    I could see that timing with the bar bounce and aiding the upward motion, especially with lifters who quickly bounce their jerks, the way Rip advocates.
    Gotta agree with this. Has Andrew ever done olympic lifting? Feels like shit with a stiff bar. And I think he needs to watch some more videos of a bounce jerk before claiming that the bar rebounds too fast to take advantage of the flex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
    Yes and no.
    Per rules, the bar can still be oscillating at the top of the clean, before the jerk. The lifter just cannot 'add' to it, or create it.
    That is, the lifter has to become motion-less at the top of the clean, but the bar could still be oscillating.
    I didn't think to add a section about oscillating the bar during a part of the lift that wouldn't be of benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
    Many jerk immediately upon standing, waiting only a fraction of second; you do not have to wait for the bar to come to a stop.
    Ilya Ilyin is a good example of this. Alex Lee immediately jerks upon standing; the bar is still clearly moving.
    Many others have commented that this is done to take advantage of the bar bounce.
    Can you show me a video of a lifter dipping and jerking in time with the bar bounce? I don't mean jerking while the bar is bouncing. I mean in time with the bounce of the bar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
    Also, Tian Tao has been known to bounce the bar before the dip and just not get caught, its definitely an intentional thing he does.
    You can also take a big breath and over do a tightening of your posture to create a slight bar bounce....(it looks like your taking your breath, but its an intentional move to create bar-bounce)
    Then this is a violation of the rules, but again, show me the video of a lifter jerking in time with the bar.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
    There's also some other considerations to whippiness.
    You'll see considerable bar deflection in the horizontal plane with some lifters at hip contact, during the explosion phase of the pull.
    Plates will shutter, not up-and-down, but side-to-side right at final extension.
    By way of comparison, think about that 1" or so of deflection in say a 405# deadlift,
    and that here the bar goes through roughly that same amount of deflection, but in only a few milliseconds....that's some considerable force.
    This might allow a certain level of forgiveness in the bar path, and allow the lifter's COM and the bar's COM to mesh closer together without the subsequent bar-loop out away .... something to think about for sure.
    Can a heavy weight be cleaned without shoving the hips forward into the bar with such force that the bar bends? Would a clean that contributes force into the bar only in the vertical direction be more efficient than one that moves the bar anywhere else? I would argue yes. Then the argument your making becomes "suboptimal technique can be covered up with a high whip bar".

    Quote Originally Posted by m s View Post
    Gotta agree with this. Has Andrew ever done olympic lifting? Feels like shit with a stiff bar. And I think he needs to watch some more videos of a bounce jerk before claiming that the bar rebounds too fast to take advantage of the flex.
    If I hadn't, would it make my arguments any less accurate?

    Please link a video of a lifter jerking IN TIME with the bounce of the bar, because I can't find it. It would certainly provide a solid counter argument to my belief here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewLewis View Post
    If I hadn't, would it make my arguments any less accurate?
    But your argument is not accurate, which you might have realized had you done more olympic lifting. Why do you think Rip advocates a bounce over the dip and drive? The primary concern on the jerk is the velocity of the bar as it leaves the shoulders. Do you think a correctly timed jerk with a whip has no impact on that velocity? And if not, wouldn't the dip and drive be favorable given the longer time allowed to accelerate the bar?

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewLewis View Post
    Please link a video of a lifter jerking IN TIME with the bounce of the bar, because I can't find it. It would certainly provide a solid counter argument to my belief here.
    Here, first one I looked at: Naim "Pocket Hercules" Suleymanoglu - YouTube

    Use the ">" key to advance frame-by-frame.

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    starting strength coach development program
    The reason I coach the bounce-jerk is not because of the bar whip it produces -- this happens at very heavy weights, not state-meet weights. The bounce-jerk produces a more efficient stretch reflex in the knees and hips than the dip-and-drive jerk.

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