Knee Movement in Squat - Long Femur Lifters Knee Movement in Squat - Long Femur Lifters - Page 2

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Thread: Knee Movement in Squat - Long Femur Lifters

  1. #11
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    • wichita falls texas february 2021 seminar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDG View Post
    I perused the DVD, again, and notice a healthy sampling of short-femur, long-torso lifters. The same can be said of the demonstration videos. Do you know where I can find video of this ‘lean over more’ technique with this type of lifter? It would be nice to see someone who DOESN’T need the knees so I could adjust myself appropriately, and help others built similarly. Some people swear by deadlifting with low hips, but when they deadlift, those hips go up to the correct position because the pull can’t happen otherwise. Likewise, the desire to stop the knees in the first 1/2 of descent is a modest aim, but it doesn’t seem to stop record breaking squats from happening with no injuries for people of this body type. I know this regrading a horizontal back angle: If I try to go vertical, I jack up my back. Every long-femur trainee jacks up the back trying to be vertical because we round over to not fall backwards. Horizontal isn’t the problem, which is why I want to see it done. Show me or explain to me how more horizontal wouldn’t throw that lifter out of balance (leaning over is useful until it isn’t) and why continuing to extend the hips back, which is what a more horizontal back angle does, would facilitate depth when it will in fact send the lifter into a deadlift position instead of allowing the hips to drop down below parallel. I don’t mean to sound frustrated but I keep trying to explain this as best I can and these two-sentence posts just make it feel like I’m being an irritation for asking about this. I deeply respect your work and all that you do, and the Asgard company, and I listen to all the podcasts, but I’m not going to spend $945 to rehash stuff I do perfectly fine on a regular basis in the gym from the book I read and studied and practiced when I’m just asking for somebody who is mechanically built poorly to trying squatting to depth without sliding the knees past the first 1/2 of descent.
    Let me try to be more clear: You are using anthropometry to explain a phenomenon that is more easily explained by a lack of correct coaching. Horizontal is almost always the problem, contrary to your opinion on the subject. You have yet to post a video or a photo of a squat bottom position that cannot be corrected in about 2 minutes on the platform by a competent coach. This may be the result of a poor understanding of the model -- which is not as rigid as you think it is -- and the seminar is where I can fix things like poor understanding. But I'm not going to type a 900-word answer to a question that does not require an exotic, original analysis, because it's not necessary and I don't have time. If you want to post a video of your squat for free, do so.

  2. #12
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    GDG, think about the principle of keeping the bar over the middle of the foot and vertical bar path. To achieve this the lifter has a choice to either 1) let the knees slide forward and keep a more vertical back angle or 2) don't let the knees slide forward and have a more horizontal back angle. Stance width and knees out gives room for the gut (I certainly have one) to move between the thighs.

    1) is more common, but is a technique flaw. Most people who don't reach depth do this and complain about lack on ankle mobility.
    2) Often needs conscious effort to learn and is uncomfortable for some at the start, but really is not that hard. The few people I have seen that cant reach depth this way are not setting feet wide enough or not moving knees out enough.

    Like the deadlift analogy where we see people set up with low hips then raise them to actually be able to lift the weight, look at a slow motion of video 4. As she comes out of the bottom position see how much her knees travel back and back goes a bit more horizontal. Not meaning to criticise her - they were good efforts.

    What I think you are seeing is a common technique issue and attributing it to anthropometry.

  3. #13
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    Horizontal is almost always the problem… This may be the result of a poor understanding of the model -- which is not as rigid as you think it is… I'm not going to… answer… a question that does not require an exotic, original analysis, because it's not necessary and I don't have time.
    I assumed that getting the post approved would mean you would answer the question. I've seen quite a few posts get rejected by many failing to understand the main material (read the book), failing to research the forum sufficiently (search function), failing to be respectful, or just being inarticulate/unclear. I did my best to cover those bases to get an answer, but the only two questions I have posted on these forums since 2017 have been more or less dismissed because of the reasons you've just stated. I assumed that if you didn't have time to answer questions, you wouldn't approve the post, or dismiss it outright, but the benefit of a 1,000 word question on a forum is to clarify enough to be considered. If I can be bold enough to say it, I don't think you read my post. You don't want to answer it because you charge people money to answer their detailed questions. There aren't any detailed analysis of this specific application of the model in any articles - and every demonstration is the ideal lifter for the movement, which is as much a marketing strategy as a demonstration of the model for the typical seminar client: an already fairly athletic individual with advantageous squatting proportions. I wouldn't have spent the time going into that detail if I felt you would just dismiss it, not for lack of preparation, reading, searching, or respect, but simply because you don't have time. Sorry to waste your time.

    1) let the knees slide forward and keep a more vertical back angle
    Every long-femur trainee jacks up the back trying to be vertical because we round over to not fall backwards. Horizontal isn’t the problem, which is why I want to see it done.
    2) don't let the knees slide forward and have a more horizontal back angle.
    Show me or explain to me how more horizontal wouldn’t throw that lifter out of balance (leaning over is useful until it isn’t) and why continuing to extend the hips back, which is what a more horizontal back angle does, would facilitate depth when it will in fact send the lifter into a deadlift position instead of allowing the hips to drop down below parallel.
    My original point: The femur length of the lifter, proportional to the torso, will determine when those knees stop moving. I agree that the knees have to stop before the bottom is reached, since the knees relax the hamstring distally, and the back angle has to be set or else the lifter will not reach parallel, they will just incline forward into a "deadlift-ready back angle"/"good morning position" too high from appropriate depth. I don't observe this happening with this type of lifter, and I have provided video that shows it with competent squatters lifting heavy weight. The only coach affiliated with this brand who is used as a poster child for the squat with a long-femur individual, and who is still pictured on the website, allows the knees to slide until right before the bounce, which is past the first 1/2 of descent. Given the picture of the bottom for those "descent" squats, the lifter could not assume a more horizontal back angle without also opening the knee angle, which either pushes the bar forward and out of balance sans knees, or creates a squat that is too high as the hips move back with the knee movement.

    I'm not posting a video of my squat because I squat just fine. I can hit depth in the low 300s, and I have a deadlift in the 400s that feels so stupidly easy, it makes me wonder why squats don't come naturally. Anthropometry DOES matter, because the increased angle generates a longer moment arm, and the proportionally advantaged lifters have smaller levers. It's not fair, but I'm not asking for a shorter femur, just some simple admission that the long-femur trainee needs more time to slide the knees forward (assuming a correct, horizontal back angle, else injury WILL occur) in order to hit the appropriate depth. I also observe a larger proportion of lifters (more than 10) who have these dimensions, and ALL of them demonstrate the same issues, which makes me wonder if the first 1/2 of descent endpoint is correctly placed. Sure sure, saying the coach is incompetent is a possibility, or maybe they need to focus on pushing those hips into the next zip code while their knees are pretty much pushed forward by the descent of the torso. That's what it looks like when other people of this proportion do it, and I wouldn't mind the "you don't understand" if someone would just demonstrate it.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDG View Post
    I'm not asking for a shorter femur, just some simple admission that the long-femur trainee needs more time to slide the knees forward (assuming a correct, horizontal back angle, else injury WILL occur) in order to hit the appropriate depth.
    How about we use that extra time to slide the hips back more, to compensate for the longer femur from the proximal end?

  5. #15
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    I think a few things are being mixed up here.
    1. Yes, a long femur person might need their knees slightly further forward than a shorter femur person. Note that the SS model does not prescribe an exact knee position. (Ripp, please correct me if I'm wrong).
    2. A more horizontal back can help balance a person who is falling backwards because, everything else staying the same, leaning forward more moves the bar forward.
    3. Point 1 is not the same as keeping the knees moving forward for longer. Moving knees are a power leak so get set by halfway down.
    4. Almost everyone starts off with their back too vertical and knees too far forward. Knee slide is talked about as a problem because it is a common flaw.
    5. Because of point 4, you are not going to get advice to have knees further forward without actually seeing your squat position.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    How about we use that extra time to slide the hips back more, to compensate for the longer femur from the proximal end?
    Lean over more. You already said that.The problem is, it doesnít work. When youíre already inclined that much, you donít have any more room to lean, such as the case I posted earlier, the woman with the Ďdescentí squats that arenít actually descent anymore because I pointed out her obvious knee travel. Truth is, there is way more hip movement expected than knee movement (at least the hips travel further through space), so the lifter has to make up for that by focusing on the hips a great deal because a vertical back angle WILL injure this lifter every time. The knees will move wherever theyíre supposed to be as long as they are unlocked and being pushed out in line with the toes as the lifters torso inevitably contacts their legs, which usually always happens unless youíve got some overextension of the back.

    Doesnít it seem odd that these lifters donít report knee pain? Iíve never seen people built this way complain about the knees, probably because they canít really Ďstay in the kneesí as you say, because they will always incline forward to squat (see the video that you refused to comment). Trying to use only the knees causes the back to round into flexion, which is what these particular lifters always complain about - back pain. Mr. Nortonís career ending injuries involve his back, not his knees. But the opposite is true for those long torso lifters that tend to stay too vertical. If itís not anthropometry, then why do we see a prevalence of a specific injury?

    Long femur lifters have to get the hips in place, with unlocked knees, and then drop down as far as they can, being sure to keep tension before hitting the bottom so they donít just stay down there. That tension is generated closer to the bottom by stopping the knee travel, not just bending over a little more when theyíre incline that far forward. I can guarantee that if you tell these guys to think about getting their knees somewhere quick, they will end up in flexion. And, if you stop the knee travel too early, you wonít hit depth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Le Comte View Post
    I think a few things are being mixed up here.
    1. Yes, a long femur person might need their knees slightly further forward than a shorter femur person. Note that the SS model does not prescribe an exact knee position. (Ripp, please correct me if I'm wrong).
    2. A more horizontal back can help balance a person who is falling backwards because, everything else staying the same, leaning forward more moves the bar forward.
    3. Point 1 is not the same as keeping the knees moving forward for longer. Moving knees are a power leak so get set by halfway down.
    4. Almost everyone starts off with their back too vertical and knees too far forward. Knee slide is talked about as a problem because it is a common flaw.
    5. Because of point 4, you are not going to get advice to have knees further forward without actually seeing your squat position.
    1. Knee position is relative to build. Iím asking about the point at which the knees will be set based on my observations from actual people. Video of these lifters are not widely available because long femur lifters donít usually record themselves squatting. The movement sucks for us.

    2. Yes, this is why the angle is needed. As noted in the book, and by anybody with a basic knowledge of geometry, the torso has a smaller angle relative to the horizontal if the bar is to stay balanced over the foot. Additionally, balance WILL be maintained naturally via back flexion, because people donít fall backwards when they squat. If the lifter doesnít lean forward, they will move the bar forward anyway, at the expense of the back. Either rounding out or inclining forward, that COM will stay balanced, and in my experience, these lifters have to lean or they just hurt themselves.

    3. Power leak? The knees and the hips control the length of the hamstring, which stays at pretty much the same length until the bounce. Back angles change slightly in the bottom as lifters take advantage of the lengthened hamstring by not leaning or moving the knees, but that happens at the very bottom. Iíve observed a bounce happening, but if the knees stop any higher than that, the lifter seems to bounce way above parallel, in an almost good morning like fashion, which has been described elsewhere. I suspect that the back angle has to get set early without the knees due to the proportions, and then the knees keep traveling forward to facilitate depth. Close to the bottom they have to stop, but it happens after the first 1/2. Maybe the back angle is changing up until that point, I donít know, it certainly doesnít really set until the lifter is almost in contact with their own thighs.

    4. If these lifters try that, they wonít squat for 2 weeks because itíll hack up their back. Iím not saying this to be silly, I am telling you that flexion with the long femur crowd hurts when the knees shoot forward with a vertical back angle. If it was a too vertical problem, then they wouldnít be squatting at all without injury.

    5. My squat position is identical to the woman in the previously posted figure. I have a 1-1 femur to torso ratio, and I measure the torso as where the barbell actually rests on my back. I can hit depth fine with significant weight without injury according to the model. My knees past the first 1/2 of descent, but I bounce like a trampoline off of those hamstrings. They donít get sore unless I GM it, so I know they arenít really changing in net length, and ask anybody with these proportions what their quads feel like when they squat (indicative of too much knee): they donít! Itís not a lean over issue, itís totally an anthropometry issue, but I havenít figured out the mechanical analysis to prove it.

  7. #17
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    CDG, you mentioned Layne Norton as a supporting example. But, under a heavy bar, he gets ridiculously horizontal, and he doesn't have appreciable (intentional) knee slide.

  8. #18
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    CDG seems to have made some important discoveries about injuries that I have missed. What would you suggest we change about our teaching method to mitigate the situation?

  9. #19
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    Exhibit 1. Layne Norton bottom of squat. Knees are not forward and manages to hit depth with a lot of forward lean. To do this he has to make some space to get between his legs.

    how-to-squat-layne-nortons-squat-tutorial_12.jpg

    Exhibit 2. Squat video of female with decent form, first rep. (Note decent is not the same as perfect).

    Describing knee position in reference to holes on the spotter arm in the background, number of holes from the right.

    Halfway down, knee is just on hole 4. Position A.
    SQ1.jpg

    This is her bottom position, she has let the knees slide forward just a little and they are now at hole 3. This is a decent, but not perfect move. Position B.
    SQ2.jpg

    This is her very first move from the bottom, her knees go back to hole 4 and her back leans over a little more. She is still at full depth so she can get to this position. Position C.

    SQ3.jpg

    I would prefer if she went from position A straight to position C, that is stop moving the knee at halfway point and stay in the hips to reach depth. This is being pretty picky on a young female squatting nearly 200.

    I am telling you that flexion with the long femur crowd hurts when the knees shoot forward with a vertical back angle.
    " I agree, which is why we are saying don't get the knees forward and don't have a vertical back angle. The back stays rigid, the flexion is in the hips not the back.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiva Kaul View Post
    CDG, you mentioned Layne Norton as a supporting example. But, under a heavy bar, he gets ridiculously horizontal, and he doesn't have appreciable (intentional) knee slide.
    Indeed. Very interesting.

    Mr. Norton could use a coach based on the above-linked heavy squat video.

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