"A Time for Choosing"

[Nockian]

Taking responsibility for your actions. All of them, everywhere and allways.

What about bad actors who want you to take responsibility for their actions ?

[Mark Rippetoe]

OK. So that’s the NAP. On its own it’s a floating abstract.

So, what prevents anyone from initiating force, or to obtain justice in the case of an initiation of force ?

My .45 Colt prevents anyone from initiating force. My attorney obtains justice if force is initiated.

What about bad actors who want you to take responsibility for their actions ?

You refuse to do it, you poor British Subject. These concepts are just so foreign.

[Satch12879]

Anyone care to accurately define libertarian ?

I’d define it as some form of mysticism. It’s devoid of any root. Mostly floating abstracts, whims and sky castles. It’s often confused with Austrian economics, but Austrian economics is a well defined special subject, although Mises did include his rather hopeless attempt at philosophy which he called praxiology which I doubt anyone actually understands.

Rothbard was the father of libertarianism, but even then it was a very loose kind of idea. More like Marx, in trying to make an economic model the basis of a political system is just weird. Putting cart before horse.

Libertarianism is a path going nowhere. Austrian economics is possibly the best form of economic understanding we currently have.

There is a massive body of libertarian literature that you seem to be totally unfamiliar with.

And just because you don't understand the very basic idea that "man acts to satisfy his own wants and needs" doesn't mean that no one does.

On the contrary I know exactly what I’m talking about. I didn’t say it was an economic model, I said an economic model was being incorrectly used to create a political model. Can you accurately define it or not ?

No, you don't know what you're talking about.

OK. So that’s the NAP. On its own it’s a floating abstract.

So, what prevents anyone from initiating force, or to obtain justice in the case of an initiation of force ?

How is violating property rights a floating abstract? I mean, only if you don't have any idea what property is, or can't define it, or work with it, or assign it, or anything.

We've dealt with all of this earlier in the year. Guys, Nockian is a Randian, a devotee of Ayn Rand and the Objectivists, and a particularly poorly-read Randian at that. That's actually not that common as the Randians in general are poorly read outside of Rand. When he took his Randian oath of allegiance, he pledged to hate libertarianism and anarchism. This is because Murray Rothbard, Mr. Libertarian, was the only successful intellectual to both personally and philosophically defy Rand, doing so for love of all things, which Rand particularly found insipid and loathsome. Thus, all Randians were decreed to reject libertarianism, no matter how logically ordered, and mock and degrade it at any opportunity, all the while remaining blissfully but defiantly ignorant of its basic precepts. This continues on to this day with the truly evil Yaron Brook making a fool of himself at every opportunity, all the while getting a check from the Cato Institute, the D.C. Beltway faux-libertarian think-tank. Then again, the Koch Foundation loves to give checks to all manner of idiots who make fools out of themselves on a regular basis.

He goading us into another unproductive discussion in which he'll continually evading actually engaging in legitimate argument and will continually goal post shift, engage in ad hominem retorts, and basically waste all of our time. We'd have a better change of getting a squat video posted than having a fruitful discussion with him.

[Nockian]

My .45 Colt prevents anyone from initiating force. My attorney obtains justice if force is initiated.



You refuse to do it, you poor British Subject. These concepts are just so foreign.

Yes, very macho, but someone always has a bigger gun-the Government has most of them. Your attorney is effectively granted legal authority with the backing of the Government, someone has to back things up with force.

We refuse to do what ? Britain wasn’t created as an idea Rip. It’s far more piecemeal, but it did produce the Magna Carta as well as Hume, Locke and Hobbes, who were influential in the American constitution.

[Mark Rippetoe]

You nailed that one, Satch!

[Sib]

My .45 Colt prevents anyone from initiating force. My attorney obtains justice if force is initiated.



You refuse to do it, you poor British Subject. These concepts are just so foreign.

Well this all escalated fast!

This British Subject is happy to learn about libertarianism and any other kind of politics. You're right a lot of it is foreign to me but that is not a bad thing.

[Nockian]

How is violating property rights a floating abstract? I mean, only if you don't have any idea what property is, or can't define it, or work with it, or assign it, or anything.

.

That’s your question to me right ? I’m not changing goal posts or anything am I ? Correct ?

“Property rights” is a concept related only in the context of a society which respects them and it requires a Government to protect them. If everyone is running around shooting everyone because they have decided their property rights have been violated where does that leave us ? Total anarchy. Capitalism cannot flourish in anarchy.

The reason I’m hard on libertarians is because they have destroyed the moral case for capitalism. They are nothing more than hippies who believe in anarchy-and haven’t we had a recent example of how that worked out so well in Seattle. Isn’t that what BLM protestors are rioting for ? Defund the Police, Anarchy and the end of capitalism. Aren’t you unwittingly on the wrong side ? You are subordinating reason to whim, just as the Conservatives subordinate reason to theology. This gives it away to our joint enemies, the collectivists.

[Sib]

There is a massive body of libertarian literature that you seem to be totally unfamiliar with.

And just because you don't understand the very basic idea that "man acts to satisfy his own wants and needs" doesn't mean that no one does.



No, you don't know what you're talking about.



How is violating property rights a floating abstract? I mean, only if you don't have any idea what property is, or can't define it, or work with it, or assign it, or anything.

We've dealt with all of this earlier in the year. Guys, Nockian is a Randian, a devotee of Ayn Rand and the Objectivists, and a particularly poorly-read Randian at that. That's actually not that common as the Randians in general are poorly read outside of Rand. When he took his Randian oath of allegiance, he pledged to hate libertarianism and anarchism. This is because Murray Rothbard, Mr. Libertarian, was the only successful intellectual to both personally and philosophically defy Rand, doing so for love of all things, which Rand particularly found insipid and loathsome. Thus, all Randians were decreed to reject libertarianism, no matter how logically ordered, and mock and degrade it at any opportunity, all the while remaining blissfully but defiantly ignorant of its basic precepts. This continues on to this day with the truly evil Yaron Brook making a fool of himself at every opportunity, all the while getting a check from the Cato Institute, the D.C. Beltway faux-libertarian think-tank. Then again, the Koch Foundation loves to give checks to all manner of idiots who make fools out of themselves on a regular basis.

He goading us into another unproductive discussion in which he'll continually evading actually engaging in legitimate argument and will continually goal post shift, engage in ad hominem retorts, and basically waste all of our time. We'd have a better change of getting a squat video posted than having a fruitful discussion with him.

I like you

[Nockian]

Well this all escalated fast!

This British Subject is happy to learn about libertarianism and any other kind of politics. You're right a lot of it is foreign to me but that is not a bad thing.

Nah, it isn’t. We have Antifa and BLM over here too Sib. Libertarians are anarchists. It’s the 60s hippy culture. Formally they support capitalism, informally they want to use their guns to do it. Hence the entire premise of the Non Aggression Principle (something plagiarised from Ayn Rand) is uprooted by ‘might makes right’. They would have warlords everywhere, just as we saw in the Seattle ‘Freetown’ of Shaz. They are helping the left.

There are aspects which narrowly appear in libertarian circles such as Austrian economics. However, libertarianism has more colours than a rainbow. There are pink libertarians and Christian libertarians. Socialist atheists and Conservative deists - how’s that for a broad church of compromise ?

Our American friends here have a notion of libertarianism as rugged individualism. A feeling of the great American spirit - and I don’t mock that in the least, I admire it, if only we had some of that here, but they are misguided and are moving America away from capitalism not toward it, which means in effect, the entire world away from capitalism.

[KShedd]

Yes, very macho, but someone always has a bigger gun-the Government has most of them. Your attorney is effectively granted legal authority with the backing of the Government, someone has to back things up with force.

We refuse to do what ? Britain wasn’t created as an idea Rip. It’s far more piecemeal, but it did produce the Magna Carta as well as Hume, Locke and Hobbes, who were influential in the American constitution.

The US Government does not in fact have more guns than the general population.

Also, the created idea is better than a piecemeal evolution of society. It gives the citizens a concrete standard to go back to when progressives get it off the rails. This is what makes the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution important and unique.