Phil Meggers SSC: The Deadlift Setup Phil Meggers SSC: The Deadlift Setup

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Thread: Phil Meggers SSC: The Deadlift Setup

  1. #1
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    Default Phil Meggers SSC: The Deadlift Setup

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    Sloppy cues because they don't work efficiently for a sizeable minority of people with wide-hipped anthropometry. After 40 years of coaching experience, I thought you and Starting Strength would have given more careful thought to such important matters. These cues are better because, well, they work better:

    1. Take your INDIVIDUAL VERTICAL JUMP STANCE WIDTH with the barbell over the MIDDLE OF YOUR FEET.

    (the individual vertical jump stance width cue does not handicap all those of wide hipped anthropometry re. narrow stance. Those with wider hips have a commensurately wider vertical jump stance. Also, a narrow stance usually makes it more difficult for these individuals to achieve a flatter braced back. The mid foot cue is a way more practical cue on the platform for the TRAINEE'S EYE than eyeballing one inch).

    2. Squat down with your arms horizontal into your vertical jump stance until your shins touch the bar.

    (Hey presto - you are nearly in YOUR individual bio-mechanically most efficient position to launch the deadlift AND you are not leaving pounds off the bar by short-changing yourself on engaging more leg-drive in the movement. A point well-documented by other elite strength coaches who have handled novice trainers to elite trainers eg. Marty Gallagher, Ed Coan).

    3. HOLD THAT POSITION.

    4. Grab the bar with elbows just outside your knees.

    5. Stand up using legs to PUSH THE FLOOR while dragging the bar up your legs SIMULTANEOUSLY.

    (Simply saying "drag the bar up the legs" carries the risk of many novices straying into stiff-legged deadlift territory without the vital "push the floor" leg cue. In the Blue Book you reference vertical jump stance as the main determinant of stance width, yet you are conversely on record as advocating narrow stance on the 5 Deadlift Cues).

    Questions:

    1. What are your refutations of the above new cues?
    2. Why is there a glaring contradiction between the stance width you recommend in the Blue Book ie. vertical jump and other places in your writings - and the above article - where you advocate a narrow stance?

  3. #3
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    1. These instructions (they are not cues) do a pretty good job of getting the trainee in the same position our instructions do.

    2. The "vertical jump stance" and our "narrow stance" are the same thing. Our instruction works better since the people we do not typically know what a "vertical jump stance" is.

    As for your step 2, I have no idea what you mean. Video?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    1. These instructions (they are not cues) do a pretty good job of getting the trainee in the same position our instructions do.

    2. The "vertical jump stance" and our "narrow stance" are the same thing. Our instruction works better since the people we do not typically know what a "vertical jump stance" is.

    As for your step 2, I have no idea what you mean. Video?


    1.

    Our respective instructions absolutely do not get people in the “same position” because your instructions mandate a narrow stance, mine mandate a vertical jump width stance - which is not a narrow stance for wide hipped individuals.

    2.

    Your instruction not only does not work better than mine, it is based on a logical fallacy. A narrow stance and vertical jump width stance are NOT phenomenologically the same thing eg. for a large minority of wide hipped lifters they are VERY different. To pretend otherwise when prescribing strength training exercises is silly, professionally negligent and biomechanically incorrect.

    As a conscientious coach, would it have not made sense to inform readers in the Blue Book actually how to identify their vertical jump stance width (very easily done) before they begin to execute the barbell exercises - yes or no? By not doing this, you’ve put the cart before the horse and have wasted a significant amount of time and money of thousands of wide hipped clients over the years.

    The information in the Blue Book is fairly decent, some is excellent but much is either conspicuous by its absence, phenomenologically impractical despite the “physics” or victim of analysis / paralysis. The attempts to instruct the Valslava is a noteworthy flaw in the text.

    Re. Step 2

    “Get into your vertical jump stance position until your shins touch the bar”

    My instructions work significantly better and I contend that yours don’t actually do a decent job on the already stated basis that they work to the detriment of a sizeable minority of lifters ie. those with wide hips.

    Sloppy.

  5. #5
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    When we coach lifters with ungodly wide hips, we adjust the instructions accordingly. Do you think we are incapable of doing so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    When we coach lifters with ungodly wide hips, we adjust the instructions accordingly. Do you think we are incapable of doing so?
    What you seem incapable of doing despite 40 years in the business is giving very important “5 Step” instructions in your best selling book which adequately cater for a sizeable section of the training population with wide hips, as argued above. This is very sloppy. Do you think this is sloppy - yes or no?

    You still havenÂ’t answered this simple question Mark -

    As a conscientious coach, would it have not made sense to inform readers in the Blue Book actually how to identify their vertical jump stance width (very easily done) before they begin to execute the barbell exercises - yes or no?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by irontruth901 View Post
    Sloppy cues because they don't work efficiently for a sizeable minority of people with wide-hipped anthropometry. After 40 years of coaching experience, I thought you and Starting Strength would have given more careful thought to such important matters. These cues are better because, well, they work better:

    1. Take your INDIVIDUAL VERTICAL JUMP STANCE WIDTH with the barbell over the MIDDLE OF YOUR FEET.

    (the individual vertical jump stance width cue does not handicap all those of wide hipped anthropometry re. narrow stance. Those with wider hips have a commensurately wider vertical jump stance. Also, a narrow stance usually makes it more difficult for these individuals to achieve a flatter braced back. The mid foot cue is a way more practical cue on the platform for the TRAINEE'S EYE than eyeballing one inch).

    2. Squat down with your arms horizontal into your vertical jump stance until your shins touch the bar.

    (Hey presto - you are nearly in YOUR individual bio-mechanically most efficient position to launch the deadlift AND you are not leaving pounds off the bar by short-changing yourself on engaging more leg-drive in the movement. A point well-documented by other elite strength coaches who have handled novice trainers to elite trainers eg. Marty Gallagher, Ed Coan).

    3. HOLD THAT POSITION.

    4. Grab the bar with elbows just outside your knees.

    5. Stand up using legs to PUSH THE FLOOR while dragging the bar up your legs SIMULTANEOUSLY.

    (Simply saying "drag the bar up the legs" carries the risk of many novices straying into stiff-legged deadlift territory without the vital "push the floor" leg cue. In the Blue Book you reference vertical jump stance as the main determinant of stance width, yet you are conversely on record as advocating narrow stance on the 5 Deadlift Cues).

    Questions:

    1. What are your refutations of the above new cues?
    2. Why is there a glaring contradiction between the stance width you recommend in the Blue Book ie. vertical jump and other places in your writings - and the above article - where you advocate a narrow stance?
    You mean something like this for steps 1 and 2? Granted, her arms aren't quite horizontal, so she needs to work on that.
    Vert jump.jpg

  8. #8
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    You don't actually own the book, do you? All this shit is in the book. Pages 103-04, and I'm not going to type it for you. I got an idea: write your own book, and stop trolling the board.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    You don't actually own the book, do you? All this shit is in the book. Pages 103-04, and I'm not going to type it for you. I got an idea: write your own book, and stop trolling the board.
    Yes Mark I do own the book - Kindle format. Re. the one paragraph devoted to the vertical jump stance re. the deadlift, why is a narrow stance advocated for the deadlift in the 5 Step instructional on many SS articles? Is this not a glaring contradiction and mixed message?

  10. #10
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    starting strength coach development program
    Just saw this. C'mon Robin, man. Knock it off.

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