Warming up taking too long

[Alchemist]

I introduced my workout partner (not life partner, NFW) to SS for an ACL injury rehab. With that half tucked away, she is NDTFP but only squats and deadlifts and only 2x a week, primarily due to life/time constraints....and this issue I'm about to ask about. So, truly, asking for a friend.

The issue is warm ups seem to be either ineffective or taking WAY too long and we can't seem to suss out the middle road. Maybe pertinent she is hyperflexible due to Elher-Danners syndrome and also has the corresponding lack of proprioception.

She is 6'1", 220 lb.

Squats are currently 5x3@165 lb.
DL @185 lb

Keeping in mind we've tried a slew of warm up scheme, her basic is

BWx10
BWx10
45x10
45x10
95x5
115x5
125x5
155x5
160x3
work sets

The issue is, per her, she does not feel warmed up with that scheme and the work sets both look and feel pretty bad. She's been back and forth at this weight due to the form being so bad as we try and add more weight. We've tried 3 lb, 2 lb and even 1 lb increases and she gets pinned at 168 lb and form looks like corresponding hell. We deloaded her a couple times to no effect. But now what I find the interesting data point.

Out of utter sheer frustration she did the above, and then 3 sets at 165x5 and tried a 4th set because of the observation the last reps on set three were not feeling too bad.....and she proceeded to destroy the 4th set. and 5th. and 6th. I've never seen her form and speed so good. She proceeded to do 9 fucking sets and capped it with 5 @ 170 and they were easy.

Her conclusion is only after 3 working sets was she feeling properly warmed up. And I'm having trouble arguing. The issue is that scheme is taking a fucking hour. Our last test cut that scheme in half, had her do 3x5 of her working sets....and it didn't have the same effect. She didn't feel warmed up.

What the hell are we missing? Can you suggest a better warmup scheme....or something? I feel like we are missing the forest for the the trees.

A last side note, her warm ups and squat set don't seem to carry over to DL in that without way too many warm up sets, the pattern repeats. Jerky form, struggles, etc.

[Mark Rippetoe]

You're missing the fact that human perception is inadequate. These are far too many warmup sets. It doesn't matter what she thinks, because she doesn't have the experience to know. If she does a couple of empty bar sets, 95x5, 125x5, and 145x2, she's warm. And she's obviously not doing the program at all, so she probably needs a better coach, one who charges money so she'll listen.

[Alchemist]

Totally fair. I'm 100% not a coach and have played that card numerous times. We are looking at reaching out to Jordan Stanton in Portland.

Just to assuage my curious mind, why such the difference in performance when when she could barely get through 3 sets of 5 but ended up just breezing sets 4-9 and then the heavier set that was more than the previous weight that pinned her at the bottom?

I've also been advocating her going to 5 sets of 3. Or is she not heavy enough yet?

And for the record, I'm totally with you that human perceptions are notoriously bad. I can't tell you how many times I've made that point with 'I don't give a fuck they felt hideous, they looked great. Add more weight next time'

[Mark Rippetoe]

Just to assuage my curious mind, why such the difference in performance when when she could barely get through 3 sets of 5 but ended up just breezing sets 4-9 and then the heavier set that was more than the previous weight that pinned her at the bottom?

I've also been advocating her going to 5 sets of 3. Or is she not heavy enough yet?

Your perceptions are not any better than hers. She didn't just "barely get through" the 3 sets of 5. Video?

[Alchemist]

Serious question. I'm not trolling. I'm not trying to bait you. Totally serious as I realized I literally couldn't put an answer to the question and google just fed me the classic lines of 'it prevents injury' and the like. That all said, and take your flavor, how do you know you or someone is actually warmed up? By what criteria can someone make that judgement? "if you do this, x,y and Z, you are warmed up" isn't what I'm talking about as it would only lead to 'how do you know x, y and z are an effective warm up?'

I seem to recall you talking about not demonstrating OHP at the seminar I attended with you because due to previous life injuries (paraphrasing from 5-6 years ago) it took you upwards to 45 minutes to warm up. Am I miss remembering?

[Mark Rippetoe]

You are not mis-remembering -- you are taking me seriously, and I was not being serious. Warmups for my work sets of squats at 305x3 would be 45x3x2, 135x2x3, 225x1, 275x1, work set.

You know you are warmed up through experience. You do too much warmup, then too little warmup, and then just enough warmup, and having done this a few weeks you can tell what is happening. She doesn't need as much warmup as the example you posted, but if she wants to do it that way and she has the time, go ahead.

[Alchemist]

You are not mis-remembering -- you are taking me seriously, and I was not being serious. Warmups for my work sets of squats at 305x3 would be 45x3x2, 135x2x3, 225x1, 275x1, work set.

You know you are warmed up through experience. You do too much warmup, then too little warmup, and then just enough warmup, and having done this a few weeks you can tell what is happening. She doesn't need as much warmup as the example you posted, but if she wants to do it that way and she has the time, go ahead.

I'm nearly speechless that you were joking....I mean, this is the TMPHBITEU...and I took what you were saying seriously as there was no hint you weren't being serious. Sigh. Ok.

Fine, I get you learn through experience. From my life experience in the hard sciences (chemistry) you (or at least I do) only gain experience from positive and negative results. This is the crux of my/our issue. I 100% use your warm up scheme and it totally works for me. My form is 'on' after two sets and the rest are mostly reminding my brain and body I can do this....but I can't translate that for her. What I'm getting at is when she asks "how do you know you are warmed up" I can't answer it. "it feels right' doesn't work as that is perceptions that you say (and I basically agree) can't be trusted. She talks about 'feeling warmed up', like literal warm muscles, which I don't get.

Let me try it this way. When you go too fast, and using your words paraphrased, 'then do too little' what sign from the heavens tells you it was too little? I know I warmed up too little because _________.

And to answer your question, she doesn't want to take so long and doesn't have the time. That is the whole reason I wrote in.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Let me try it this way. When you go too fast, and using your words paraphrased, 'then do too little' what sign from the heavens tells you it was too little? I know I warmed up too little because _________.

Because I've done it before and it worked just fine the way I did it. I got all my work sets and I didn't get hurt. This is just not that complicated.