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Thread: Training plan for aggression

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewLewis View Post
    These are complete strawman arguments, because in fighting, you have to diversify your options.

    What you've stated is analogous to saying "oh you have a life raft, but what if you need to cut a rope in order to keep the boat from capsizing? The life raft would be useless. You need a knife. Ergo, don't stock a life raft."

    The point behind learning to fight on the ground is so that if you end up on the ground, you have an advantage.

    You realizing rolling on the ground, I might also have a knife or gun, right? You realizing that if I throw you on the ground and you land on broken glass, gravel, and rocks, you are going to be in much more trouble than me, right?

    Every fight is different, and you have to use the skills you have fitting the situation. If your plan is "No one is every going to take me to the ground" that's not a robust plan.
    No strawman at all. It appears you assume that it's useless or counterproductive to learn how defend from or on the ground. The point is not to INTENTIONALLY TAKE a fight to the ground. Which is different from knowing what to do to save or protect your ass if you unintentionally end up there during the course of a fight.

    In other words, as stay agile, mobile, and hostile as possible. Mobility and agility are significantly reduced when you CHOOSE to engage in a two dimensional engagement on the ground.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark E. Hurling View Post
    Most of your post makes many excellent points. But 4) is a really bad idea in many crowded bars. As well as dark locations with possible broken glass, gravel, and rocks. Then there's the potential friends around to help stomp you on the ground. Not to forget the possible knife clipped to a pocket that might come out with no quick exit strategy when rolling prone.
    If you're in a multiple assailant situation and you're not armed, your chance for a successful outcome (unlike in the movies) is very poor in the best of conditions. Obviously if in a scenario where more bad guys might be joining in the fun, then I agree. You have to stay on your feet otherwise you'll die as you alluded to. Your best chance is to run.

    I'm no expert in knife defenses but I know that the majority of them (also unlike in the movies) will end badly for you. I'm guessing though that if you have a good ground game, it'll be harder for the bad guy to get a knife (or even a gun) into the fight from the ground than if he's standing. If such a weapon is already out then I'd have Scotty beam you up right quick.

    All in all though, I pretty much agree with your exception.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark E. Hurling View Post
    No strawman at all. It appears you assume that it's useless or counterproductive to learn how defend from or on the ground. The point is not to INTENTIONALLY TAKE a fight to the ground. Which is different from knowing what to do to save or protect your ass if you unintentionally end up there during the course of a fight.

    In other words, as stay agile, mobile, and hostile as possible. Mobility and agility are significantly reduced when you CHOOSE to engage in a two dimensional engagement on the ground.
    Most fights that last more than ten seconds will end up on the ground. You can either choose how you're going to get there and control your ground position. Or you can let fate take its course, get hurt, end up in a bad ground position (i.e. badguy's mount), etc. When you're on the ground, against most attackers you're at a big advantage because untrained people suck at it, it frightens them, and they burn a huge amount of energy and run out of gas quick. When you study BJJ, you live on the ground.

    Wonder why special forces guys attack at night? They have night vision devices and their enemies don't:

    Daytime -> some advantage.
    Nighttime -> big advantage.

    Standing -> not much advantage (or none).
    Ground -> big advantage.

  3. #43
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    I remember a good line from a movie in which a guy gave the two best rules for self defense:
    1. Run
    2. Fast

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFord View Post
    If you're in a multiple assailant situation and you're not armed, your chance for a successful outcome (unlike in the movies) is very poor in the best of conditions. Obviously if in a scenario where more bad guys might be joining in the fun, then I agree. You have to stay on your feet otherwise you'll die as you alluded to. Your best chance is to run.

    I'm no expert in knife defenses but I know that the majority of them (also unlike in the movies) will end badly for you. I'm guessing though that if you have a good ground game, it'll be harder for the bad guy to get a knife (or even a gun) into the fight from the ground than if he's standing. If such a weapon is already out then I'd have Scotty beam you up right quick.

    All in all though, I pretty much agree with your exception.


    Most fights that last more than ten seconds will end up on the ground. You can either choose how you're going to get there and control your ground position. Or you can let fate take its course, get hurt, end up in a bad ground position (i.e. badguy's mount), etc. When you're on the ground, against most attackers you're at a big advantage because untrained people suck at it, it frightens them, and they burn a huge amount of energy and run out of gas quick. When you study BJJ, you live on the ground.

    Wonder why special forces guys attack at night? They have night vision devices and their enemies don't:

    Daytime -> some advantage.
    Nighttime -> big advantage.

    Standing -> not much advantage (or none).
    Ground -> big advantage.
    There is a lot here to unpack, but hard no on the last part. It is orders of magnitude easier to train how to remain up in a fight than to become entangled in a ground fight. Not a match. Not sparring. Not the mat or your "self defense class" slow demonstration. A real fight.

    Interesting that you mention the military. Body manipulation and grappling is taught, but it is supplemental to the purpose of hand-to-hand fighting for combat (and self defense):


    Finish the fight quickly.


    Stop trying to make grappling as a primary or preferable means of defense a thing. You're going to get yourself, or someone else, seriously injured or killed. By all means, learn it. It will even work some of the time, but you are taking an unnecessary risk that will catch up to you.

  5. #45
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    If you take some guy to the ground and get on top of him and successfully control him, how does that stop his mate taking a 6 step run up and booting you in the back of the head?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subby View Post
    If you take some guy to the ground and get on top of him and successfully control him, how does that stop his mate taking a 6 step run up and booting you in the back of the head?
    You ask too much of one system. Multiple opponents are what guns, blades, polearms, running, and not being there in the first place are for.

    But sure, let's say that's the scenario. Am I immobile in this situation? Am I not allowed to stand up and address that guy or run away? Why am I even in the scenario where two (or more) people are trying to do me serious harm?
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  7. #47
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    Feels like we completely skipped the part where being assertive and displaying a confident dominance without being a prick is a handy life skill to master and jumped straight to the bit where you want to fuck someone up.

    Guaranteed this ends up badly for most people who think "aggression" means fighting.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewLewis View Post
    Why am I even in the scenario where two (or more) people are trying to do me serious harm?
    Because you didnít leave two drinks ago as you know you should have.

  9. #49
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    And the other guy who got kicked out earlier has been waiting outside.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subby View Post
    If you take some guy to the ground and get on top of him and successfully control him, how does that stop his mate taking a 6 step run up and booting you in the back of the head?
    How does squaring off with a guy and exchanging punches stop his mate taking a 6 step run up and bashing you over the head with something?

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