muscle mass and tonnage

[CommanderFun]

Have you actually read Dr. Sullivan's post? He was the one with the absurd examples of lifting very light loads, at intensities that no one actually uses.

Have you spent much time in commercial gyms? Full of dudes doing high rep stuff with light weights and not improving, because they heard that was how to achieve hypertrophy somewhere.

[francesco.decaro]

This is simply untrue and directly conflicts with every article/book I've read which Andy has written about hypertrophy. You are making shit up.



Not only are you also guilty of fabricating absolute nonsense in this entire post, you also have the honor of being the biggest simp on this forum.

Lastly, I'd like to include a quote from this Baker article:



That is the only thing I have been suggesting this entire time. That optimal strength and hypertrophy do not always overlap. That's it. Now watch Rippetoe delete this post like my last one was--on "one of the best places on the internet to freely exchange ideas"! Yeah, right. Free exchanges don't suffer from moderation---"trolls" have ideas, too.

Where is the nonsense exactly? Cause you seem to be the only one noticing it.
What is a "simp"?

Also, yours wasn't an idea, you were just stating something that is obvious to all of us while presenting it as if it was a new idea or a valuable argument.
Yes, professional bodybuilders might not need to just do sets of 5 and increase their squat forever and ever.
Yes, if you are squatting over 500lbs, and want to do some pump stuff, have fun, you might gain something out of it. But if you bring your Squat up to 600lbs you know for a fact you will have gained something.
Thank you for your contribution, you are free to move to other forums that best suite your needs instead of bitching here, since no answer so far seems to have been satisfactory enough for you.

This is my last reply

[zft]

Have you spent much time in commercial gyms? Full of dudes doing high rep stuff with light weights and not improving, because they heard that was how to achieve hypertrophy somewhere.

Similarly, these forums are full of people doing low rep stuff with heavy weights who are also not improving and are forever stuck at a 200-something squat. Just take a gander at the logs. Apparently they heard this was how to become strong somewhere.

There are also strong people on this forum who did improve and did become strong with the low rep/heavy training modality. Similarly, there are huge yoked men who got that way from doing bodybuilding-style training without ever doing heavy fahves. That is not mythology, I personally know of examples and I'm sure you likely do too. "Sub-optimal" is distinct from "ineffective," y'know.

[coldfire]

Yes, and please include data on programs in which one squats 405x1 (or 5) without previously squatting 375x1 (or 5).

So, you have changed your argument that the absurd intensity range of 5-10% of 1RM doesn't work, to the reasonable fact that you must squat 375 before squatting 405? I have no issue with this claim, however it is irrelevant to your original post about light weights and high reps.
Also, you can substantially improve your 1RM without ever squatting a new 5RM. Many people have done this, myself included.

None of them examined our methods.

I agree. I also agree that Starting Strength is probably the best program for a complete novice, and I don't think that many people would argue against that. The few people I have trained, all used SS at their novice stage.
However, like I said in my previous post, this is not about training methods, this is about which parameters (volume, intensity, etc.) are more important for hypertrophy, and the research is not quite in agreement with your stance, as far as I understand.

[k_dean_curtis]

Ok Coach, I tried talking some sense into this child. He clearly does not want an answer, is trolling.
My vote is to ban Zft now.

[CommanderFun]

Similarly, these forums are full of people doing low rep stuff with heavy weights who are also not improving and are forever stuck at a 200-something squat. Just take a gander at the logs. Apparently they heard this was how to become strong somewhere.

I don't think the answer for any of them is going to be dropping the weight down to 100 something and doing sets with lots of reps.

[tompaynter]

Similarly, these forums are full of people doing low rep stuff with heavy weights who are also not improving and are forever stuck at a 200-something squat. Just take a gander at the logs. Apparently they heard this was how to become strong somewhere.

There are also strong people on this forum who did improve and did become strong with the low rep/heavy training modality. Similarly, there are huge yoked men who got that way from doing bodybuilding-style training without ever doing heavy fahves. That is not mythology, I personally know of examples and I'm sure you likely do too. "Sub-optimal" is distinct from "ineffective," y'know.

Zft you are raising the exact same issues I have raised before in this forum, namely:
1) SS's frequent proclamations that gaining strength is the best or only way to gain size are contradicted by statements in SS's own books and materials;
2) This forum is full of conformists and bullies that prevent rational discussion of #1.

It sucks because I came to this forum a huge fan of SS and Rip personally. Shit I even watched his cooking shows and tried his recipes. Now, while I still believe in the core program, I think Rip is a toxic, power-drunk personality. Notice how many smart people he used to work with have left the organization and started their own companies, and not because they have a different training philosophy.

You can come in here with a question like, "Hey I've been doing the program for awhile, love it, made great gains. But now that I am strong I would like a bit more size on my [quads, shoulders, whatever]. The book mentions using higher reps for this but doesn't set out a program. What should I do?" And instead of a reasonable response you'll get called a troll, accused of asking a 'gotcha' question, of being a wimp who is afraid to train heavy, or just stupid and bad at reading comprehension. But then Rip answers half the questions he gets with a link to the book--the book he apparently no longer stands behind.

I should say it's possible Rip isn't actually an asshole, but just likes to be one online. Being online does that to people.

[guni]

This thread is pure gold. the irony is that even successful bodybuilders and their coaches agree that increasing strength is paramount.

Here's an excerpt of an old post by Dante Trudel, aka Doggcrapp:


"Bodybuilding as a whole is extreme and you must go to extreme lengths to be an out of the ordinary bodybuilder in this activity ... Jon Parillo was on the right track years ago when he was trying to make bodybuilders into food processing factories...first I have to go over some principles I believe in regarding training and I’ll hit more on training details later on.


a) I believe he who makes the greatest strength gains (in a controlled fashion) as a bodybuilder, makes the greatest muscle gains. Note: I said strength gains--everyone knows someone naturally strong who can bench 400 yet isn't that big. Going from a beginning 375 bench to 400 isn't that great of a strength gain and won’t result in much of a muscle gain. But if I show you someone who went from 150 to 400 on a bench press, that guy will have about 2.5 inches more of muscle thickness on his pecs. That is an incredible strength gain and will equal out into an incredible muscle gain. Ninety-nine percent of bodybuilders are brainwashed that they must go for a blood pump and are striving for that effect--(go up and down on your calves 500 times and tell me if your calves got any bigger). And those same 99% in a gym stay the same year after year. It's because they have no plan, they go in, get a pump and leave. They give the body no reason to change. Powerbodybuilders and powerlifters plan to continually get stronger and stronger on key movements. The body protects itself from ever increasing loads by getting muscularly bigger=adaption. I’M going to repeat this and hammer it home because of its importance: THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE GREATEST STRENGTH GAINS OVER TIME WILL MAKE THE GREATEST SIZE GAINS OVER TIME ACCORDING TO THEIR GENETIC POTENTIAL. If you reading this never get anywhere close to your ultimate strength levels (AT WHATEVER REP RANGE) you will never get to your utmost level of potential size.

b) I haven't seen a guy who can squat 500 for 20 reps, bench press 500 for 15 and deadlift 500 for 15 who was small yet ---but I have seen a lot and I mean a lot of people in the gym and on these Internet forums that are a buck 65 or two and change, shouting that you don't have to lift heavy to get big ...

c) Training is all about adaption. In simple terms you lift a weight and your muscle has one of 2 choices, either tear completely under the load (which is incredibly rare and what we don't want) or the muscle lifts the weight and protects itself by remodeling and getting bigger to protect itself against the load (next time). If the weight gets heavier, the muscle has to again remodel and get bigger again to handle it. You can superset, superslow, giant set, pre exhaust all day long but the infinite adaption is load---meaning heavier and heavier weights is the only infinite thing you can do in your training. Intensity is finite. Volume is finite (or infinite if you want to do 9000 sets per bodypart)...everything else is finite. The Load is infinite and heavier and heavier weights used (I DON'T GIVE A CRAP WHAT SOME BUCK 58 POUND WRITER FROM FLEX MAGAZINE SAYS) will make the biggest bodybuilder (add high protein, glutamine and drugs to the mix and you have one large person).

d) The largest pro bodybuilders in the last 10 years ... are also the very strongest (Kovacs, Prince, Coleman, Yates, Francois, Nasser). For anyone who argues that they have seen so and so pro bodybuilder and he trains light---well I will bet you he isn't gaining rapid size anymore and that his greatest size increases were when he was training shit heavy going for his pro card ... Sadly heavy drug use can make up for a lot of training fallacies and leave people still uninformed on how they became massive."

[Satch12879]

Similarly, these forums are full of people doing low rep stuff with heavy weights who are also not improving and are forever stuck at a 200-something squat. Just take a gander at the logs. Apparently they heard this was how to become strong somewhere.

There are also strong people on this forum who did improve and did become strong with the low rep/heavy training modality. Similarly, there are huge yoked men who got that way from doing bodybuilding-style training without ever doing heavy fahves. That is not mythology, I personally know of examples and I'm sure you likely do too. "Sub-optimal" is distinct from "ineffective," y'know.

We've heard all of this somewhere, too.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Similarly, these forums are full of people doing low rep stuff with heavy weights who are also not improving and are forever stuck at a 200-something squat. Just take a gander at the logs. Apparently they heard this was how to become strong somewhere.

There are also strong people on this forum who did improve and did become strong with the low rep/heavy training modality. Similarly, there are huge yoked men who got that way from doing bodybuilding-style training without ever doing heavy fahves. That is not mythology, I personally know of examples and I'm sure you likely do too. "Sub-optimal" is distinct from "ineffective," y'know.

Oh, wow. This must be the data that was requested.