muscle mass and tonnage

[coldfire]

T

Share with us the current data, please.

Here is some of it:

Volume for Muscle Hypertrophy and Health Outcomes: The Most Effective Variable in Resistance Training | SpringerLink
Low-Load Bench Press Training to Fatigue Results in Muscle Hypertrophy Similar to High-Load Bench Press Training
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/...iol.00154.2016
Effects of Low- vs. High-Load Resistance Training on Muscle... : The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research

None of them is perfect of course, and I didn't mean to argue training methods, but the point stands: If you want to criticize someone, make sure you do not misrepresent their argument.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Share with us the current data, please.

Yes, and please include data on programs in which one squats 405x1 (or 5) without previously squatting 375x1 (or 5).

[francesco.decaro]

Have you actually read Dr. Sullivan's post? He was the one with the absurd examples of lifting very light loads, at intensities that no one actually uses. Can he actually form an argument? What was he trying to say? He chose the lazy way out, so I guess we will never know.

Oh, I thought he chose sarcasm, my bad

[k_dean_curtis]

Wow, this thread is still going. Seems like every few years I have to repost this info. Like doc Sully, it can get tiresome. I hope this clears up things for Zft and others.

A quote from Coach Kelly Baggett back in the day:
Let’s say you take a 250 pound powerlifter at 10% body-fat who has only trained with singles, doubles, and triples his entire life, (and thus only dealt with low volume “tension” related growth). Let’s say he had taken his bodyweight from a natural 150 when he first started lifting and ate and trained his way up to a 250-pound powerhouse. Now, lets say you decide to convert him to standard bodybuilding training by having him train with more volume, more “fatigue” training, and more total work for all his major muscle groups (such as more sets overall, higher rep sets, volume training, drop sets, rest-pause etc.). With all that additional bodybuilding stuff and without changing his diet, you might be able to put an additional 10 or 15 pounds of muscle mass on him (100 pounds lean muscle mass gained plus ~10%). About half of that extra mass would occur within weeks and it would be related to an increased ability he has to store muscle glycogen. The other half of that 10 or 15 pounds would be “real” muscle that would come about from the increased workload. Both of those would pale in comparison to the gains he had already made simply taking a no holds barred low volume powerlifting approach to making strength gains over time, but those traditional “weider” methods would put a pretty nice “finishing touch” on his physique.

Coach Rip and Andy's main point has always been that unless you are 90+% of the way to your full genetic potential, the hi rep fluff stuff is a waste of time.
And for us older guys, quoting Coach Andy from a few years ago in the Programming forum:
The older you get, the less valuable the high rep BB stuff becomes.

To reiterate, the only value of the high rep stuff is to temporarily increase glycogen storage.
You don't even need weights for that, you can do Tabata intervals.
I have done BB competitions and know a few pros.
All will tell you that stuff tops out in 3 to 6 weeks. It is ONLY done before a show, never in the off season.
Some pros will do the pump stuff more year around, but that is only because they will not get any bigger, they have constant photo shoots and appearances, and need to stay closer to contest condition most of the year. That is why you see the ridiculous BB routines in every Youtube video, purely for the show.

HTH

[francesco.decaro]

The sea lion is a pain in the ass, Tom.



Share with us the current data, please.

Rip, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think people believe that you and everyone else on the SS crew just sit on your ass and just tell people to do sets of fhave.
They don't understand you actually research the shit you talk about. That's why you don't cover every single aspect of health, or fitness or training or athletics, but only that in which you have a solid knowledge.
As far as training goes, you do stay in your lane, but unlike what most people think, your lane is not just doing an NLP or teaching a squat, your lane is decades of empirical evidence and contribution from experts of many different fields for the goal of getting the general population stronger and better understanding of the biomechanics, biochemistry and physiology involved in lifting weights, and this is an ever evolving process, but of course with time the amount of changes and discoveries will become fewer and fewer. Plus the work that Ray is doing in creating the first ever gym franchise to collect enormous amounts of data in regards to the general population getting stronger all with the same method. This is scientific research at its finest.
Who gives a crap what Dr.Schoenfeld has "researched" with his 20 college kids over 6 months.

People still think this is about exchanging opinions and theories.

[tompaynter]

The sea lion is a pain in the ass, Tom.

People who object to bullshit often are a pain in the ass to people who are full of shit. The sealion cartoon/term is most often deployed online like this:
Person who is full of shit: "Men suck, god what a bunch of rapey misogynistic bastards who have never done anything good for humanity."
Man: "Uh, wait a minute, [reasonable objection]."
PWIFOS: "Oh great here come the trolls. [sealion cartoon]"
Deploying 'sealion' is nothing but an attempt to talk shit and not get called on it.

[Yngvi]

The sealion is absolutely the good guy in this scenario. If someone is talking unfounded shit about a group of people, the speaker deserves to be confronted. This can be illustrated by substituting, say, "blacks" or "Jews" for "sealions".

I'm team sealion.

I will publicly have whatever opinion I damn well choose of sea lions.
I will disparage them if I think they deserve it.
I will stereotype them with their loud, aggressive, annoying honking and blubbery inability to run on land.

I don't have to explain anything to you and if you disagree you can fuck back off to Sea World where I hope your kind gets swallowed by an orca.

[Mark Rippetoe]

People who object to bullshit often are a pain in the ass to people who are full of shit. The sealion cartoon/term is most often deployed online like this:
Person who is full of shit: "Men suck, god what a bunch of rapey misogynistic bastards who have never done anything good for humanity."
Man: "Uh, wait a minute, [reasonable objection]."
PWIFOS: "Oh great here come the trolls. [sealion cartoon]"
Deploying 'sealion' is nothing but an attempt to talk shit and not get called on it.

I'm sorry, Tom. I meant that you are a pain in the ass. And that is all you are.

None of them is perfect of course, and I didn't mean to argue training methods, but the point stands: If you want to criticize someone, make sure you do not misrepresent their argument.

None of them examined our methods. Therefore, they did not even consider my arguments. ONE MORE TIME: Starting Strength is a strength program that also happens to produce the most hypertrophy for everybody who is starting to train, far more effectively than any other program. These ridiculous papers are at best tangential to this discussion.

[zft]

Andy's main point has always been that unless you are 90+% of the way to your full genetic potential, the hi rep fluff stuff is a waste of time.

This is simply untrue and directly conflicts with every article/book I've read which Andy has written about hypertrophy. You are making shit up.

Rip, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think people believe that you and everyone else on the SS crew just sit on your ass and just tell people to do sets of fhave.
They don't understand you actually research the shit you talk about. That's why you don't cover every single aspect of health, or fitness or training or athletics, but only that in which you have a solid knowledge.
As far as training goes, you do stay in your lane, but unlike what most people think, your lane is not just doing an NLP or teaching a squat, your lane is decades of empirical evidence and contribution from experts of many different fields for the goal of getting the general population stronger and better understanding of the biomechanics, biochemistry and physiology involved in lifting weights, and this is an ever evolving process, but of course with time the amount of changes and discoveries will become fewer and fewer. Plus the work that Ray is doing in creating the first ever gym franchise to collect enormous amounts of data in regards to the general population getting stronger all with the same method. This is scientific research at its finest.
Who gives a crap what Dr.Schoenfeld has "researched" with his 20 college kids over 6 months.

People still think this is about exchanging opinions and theories.

Not only are you also guilty of fabricating absolute nonsense in this entire post, you also have the honor of being the biggest simp on this forum.

Lastly, I'd like to include a quote from this Baker article:

While strength and hypertrophy-specific training have very broad overlap – they are not necessarily one in the same

That is the only thing I have been suggesting this entire time. That optimal strength and hypertrophy do not always overlap. That's it. Now watch Rippetoe delete this post like my last one was--on "one of the best places on the internet to freely exchange ideas"! Yeah, right. Free exchanges don't suffer from moderation---"trolls" have ideas, too.

[Mark Rippetoe]

Now watch Rippetoe delete this post like my last one was--on "one of the best places on the internet to freely exchange ideas"! Yeah, right. Free exchanges don't suffer from moderation---"trolls" have ideas, too.

No, I'll just delete the other one.