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Thread: muscle mass and tonnage

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldfire View Post
    I meant that we do not need to rely on peer review, since we can examine those papers ourselves. Don't you think that the model of hypertrophy discussed in your article (Muscular Hypertrophy | Andy Baker) relies on similar data? Notice that it contains similar claims:

    1. Mechanical tension is the main mechanism for driving hypertrophy.
    2. Mechanical tension can be achieved with high intensity sets, or with low intensity sets with high proximity to failure:
    Why is this so fascinating to you people?

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldfire View Post
    I meant that we do not need to rely on peer review, since we can examine those papers ourselves. Don't you think that the model of hypertrophy discussed in your article (Muscular Hypertrophy | Andy Baker) relies on similar data? Notice that it contains similar claims:

    1. Mechanical tension is the main mechanism for driving hypertrophy.
    2. Mechanical tension can be achieved with high intensity sets, or with low intensity sets with high proximity to failure:
    The article states what you mentioned, but all of the paragraphs immediately after that part go on make some very important points

    So, when a lifter un-racks the barbell for a heavy set of 5 reps (think 80-85% of 1RM) the lifter is under the ideal conditions for optimally placing the most amount of muscle fibers under the optimal amount of mechanical tension. Heavy weights demand that the bigger type-II muscle fibers (those with the most potential for growth and force production) are recruited early in the set – and in this case, from the very first rep. We know this because even for the very first rep of a heavy set of 5 we have to exert maximal or near-maximal effort on the barbell in order to move it.

    A similar event happens in a maximum effort set of 12 reps. Perhaps the first 6-7 reps of this set move with a sub-maximal amount of effort (submaximal implies less motor unit recruitment and thus less muscle mass being trained). But then, as fatigue starts to build in the working motor units, the barbell slows down, and the lifter must exert more and more effort to move the barbell for more reps. As the set progresses and voluntary effort increases, motor unit recruitment increases (specifically the bigger type II fibers), the barbell slows and a very high percentage of type II muscle fibers are placed under a high degree of mechanical tension. (Note: I am differentiating between a single 12RM set used here and the earlier example of metabolic stress that involved multiple sets of 8-12 on short rest periods. These are two fundamentally different events).

    In essence, the last 5 reps of the 12RM, were similar to the 5RM in terms of the number of muscle fibers trained, even though there are still some qualitative differences between these two events. First, if we are concerned at all with force production, then the amount of weight on the barbell actually matters. Muscle fibers can experience a high level of mechanical tension even with relatively light loads, so long as those loads are pushed right up to the brink of failure. But this is not the same as the force production capacity of the entire muscle, much less the entirety of the musculo-skeletal system.

    For force production, there is no end-run around heavy weight. And yes, it is possible to actually achieve some degree of hypertrophic response through the use of submaximal weights taken to failure, and achieve very little improvement in force production capacity at heavier weights (or even a loss of force production capacity).

    So if we are primarily interested in hypertrophy, and we have a couple of potential pathways to get there, what do we choose? There are a few factors to consider. First, we already alluded to the fact that training with sets of 5 will automatically select for a load that gives you the dual benefit of placing a large number of muscle fibers under high degrees of mechanical tension and allows for actual strength/force production work to be performed (because the weight is actually heavy, not just perceived as heavy due to fatigue). If we compare to a set of 10 or 12 taken towards failure, we may potentially get the hypertrophy response, but we utterly lack the component that trains force production.

    This has consequences in terms of long-term progressibility of a system that relies solely or mostly on high-repetition work. And progressibility must be accounted for. If there is no mechanism in the program that trains force production, then there is no mechanism that creates a catalyst for long-term progress. As odd as it may sound, your ability to squat 315 x 20, will by and large be predicated on your ability to squat 495 x 5 first. The best way to increase your capacity with submaximal loads is to increase your capacity with near-maximal loads.
    When you read the whole article, it becomes obvious that the minutiae of the mechanisms are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things because it isn't useful.
    Simple observation gets you to the same logical conclusion anyways. Heavy weights makes you bigger and stronger.

    So, Why get into all this complex detail? Why worry about if there are "other ways" to stimulate hypertrophy?

    Lifting light weights lots of times CAN stimulate "mechanical tension", but it won't make you any stronger, so why give a fuck? Why waste your time?
    Why spend maybe hours training for "hypertrophy" when you could just squat, deadlift and press for the same effect and get stronger too?

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
    Why spend maybe hours training for "hypertrophy" when you could just squat, deadlift and press for the same effect and get stronger too?
    Assuming "the effect" is hypertrophy, why do you think the magnitude of the effect would be the same across training styles? And since there are multiple mechanisms for hypertrophy at play, calling it "the effect" is misleading regardless; the mechanisms are surely not "irrelevant" as you claim and understanding them is useful if you wish to exploit them.

  4. #124
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    This has been such an entertaining thread.
    One day long after we are all gone, SS will claim its rightful place as the one true world religion. Disciples for ever.

    Too much ? anyway i'm off to place of worship for my 370x5x3 squat session

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
    The article states what you mentioned, but all of the paragraphs immediately after that part go on make some very important points



    When you read the whole article, it becomes obvious that the minutiae of the mechanisms are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things because it isn't useful.
    Simple observation gets you to the same logical conclusion anyways. Heavy weights makes you bigger and stronger.

    So, Why get into all this complex detail? Why worry about if there are "other ways" to stimulate hypertrophy?

    Lifting light weights lots of times CAN stimulate "mechanical tension", but it won't make you any stronger, so why give a fuck? Why waste your time?
    Why spend maybe hours training for "hypertrophy" when you could just squat, deadlift and press for the same effect and get stronger too?
    Dude, don’t waste your time. Some fuckers just like to argue.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by zft View Post
    Assuming "the effect" is hypertrophy, why do you think the magnitude of the effect would be the same across training styles? And since there are multiple mechanisms for hypertrophy at play, calling it "the effect" is misleading regardless; the mechanisms are surely not "irrelevant" as you claim and understanding them is useful if you wish to exploit them.
    Can you explain how you best exploit them, given this knowledge?

  7. #127
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    Since this has gone around in circles about ten times and nobody has had their mind changed about anything, how about if, at this point, we just say if you want to use higher reps, do that. If you don't want to use higher reps, don't. I don't understand the need to spend all this time trying to convince anyone of anything. If anyone were to be convinced, it would have happened many posts ago.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
    The article states what you mentioned, but all of the paragraphs immediately after that part go on make some very important points
    True, but the rest of the points are exclusively the authors opinion, which is fine of course, but irrelevant to the discussion.


    When you read the whole article, it becomes obvious that the minutiae of the mechanisms are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things because it isn't useful.
    Simple observation gets you to the same logical conclusion anyways. Heavy weights makes you bigger and stronger.
    This is not minutiae. Training is an optimization problem where you need to produce enough stress, but not so much fatigue that you can't produce useful stress again in a few days. We all like lifting heavy weights of course, but not all of us can deadlift a heavy set of 3-5 and get enough stimulus in order to get bigger/stronger. Then, the details of what is heavy enough, and what stimulates hypertrophy and strength become pretty important.

    Why spend maybe hours training for "hypertrophy" when you could just squat, deadlift and press for the same effect and get stronger too?
    You can squat/deadlift and press for different set and rep schemes. This is irrelevant to the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Kalin View Post
    Dude, don’t waste your time. Some fuckers just like to argue.
    Some people just need to shut the fuck up, when they don't know what they are talking about.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldfire View Post
    not all of us can deadlift a heavy set of 3-5 and get enough stimulus in order to get bigger/stronger.
    What do you base this on?

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldfire View Post
    This is not minutiae. Training is an optimization problem where you need to produce enough stress, but not so much fatigue that you can't produce useful stress again in a few days. We all like lifting heavy weights of course, but not all of us can deadlift a heavy set of 3-5 and get enough stimulus in order to get bigger/stronger. Then, the details of what is heavy enough, and what stimulates hypertrophy and strength become pretty important.
    This is reminding me of quite a foggy memory of a book I read that answered all these questions. The name escapes me right now though, sorry!

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