Suggestions for research in sports science

[Mark Le Comte]

I'm a simple man and I like simple concepts.
Shoulders in front of the bar, arms at a 7° angle to the floor, lats pulling at a 90° angle from the humerus, high hips

7 degree angle seems to be anything but simple to use in practice.

Rip always asks for proof of someone pulling a heavy deadlift that doesn't show those mechanics, and I haven't seen anyone posting anything in response.

What is there more to find out?
People have pulled hundreds of kilos like this. I think it's all figured out as far as the mechanics go.

Practically yes, but not in academic theory or even a lot (dare I say the majority) of trainers/trainees minds.

[Mark Rippetoe]

JBest of Brian Shaw | Part 1 | World's Strongest Man - YouTube

Where were his hips and where was the bar over his feet when it came off the ground, i.e. where the deadlift started? We've been talking about this for more than ten years.

7 degree angle seems to be anything but simple to use in practice.

The setup procedure detailed in the book generates this position.

Practically yes, but not in academic theory or even a lot (dare I say the majority) of trainers/trainees minds.

I think we have figured out the mechanics pretty well, and explained them in the book. Is there part of it you disagree with?

Deadlift Mechanics:The Obvious Can Be Obscure | Mark Rippetoe

[VNV]

Deadlift Mechanics:The Obvious Can Be Obscure | Mark Rippetoe

Hey, how do /you/ know about rigid body analyses?

[Mark Rippetoe]

I had to learn some shit.

[Mark Le Comte]

The setup procedure detailed in the book generates this position.

I think we have figured out the mechanics pretty well, and explained them in the book. Is there part of it you disagree with?
]

More than pretty well! I don’t disagree with any of it myself, I’m only saying that:
1. A lot of people still get it wrong. Even ( or maybe especially) professional s&c coaches.
2. The deadlift setup is an example of something that could be used in an academic paper in answer to the OP’s question

I’d missed and/or forgotten the 7-11 degree angle. I personally wouldn’t use that as a cue though because, as you say, the set up process achieves the same thing, I don’t think I could judge such small angles by eye if I were coaching, and I don’t often watch myself deadlift from the side.

[Subby]

Hi Mr Rippetoe,
what research would actually have an impact on strength training? Though I plan to read the blue book in more detail.

How about an actual comparison of Novice Cohort A running Starting Strength and novice Cohort B running "standard PT strength program" for 16 weeks. I remember last time I searched a database "Starting strength" returned 0 hits.

You know what the outcome will be, so the hardest part would actually be finding a coach willing to give up 4 months or so of profitable time to actually coach for free, to prove something that everyone already knows, to a bunch of people that don't know it, and don't want to know it, to a journal that probably won't accept it.

All I've ever wanted is to see a paper that details a cohort of trainees running the NLP for a decent length of time compared to the "gold standard"

[Jason Donaldson]

Just to be clear, Rip, I’m not saying they’re pulling more weight because they’re falsifying the standard pulling position. I’m saying that they’re pulling big weight despite doing things wrong. My question was aimed at the reasons why they do it. I’ve seen all these big strongmen dropping their hips ways down, rolling the bar, etc., and still pull the weight.

Do the hips rise before the weight leaves the ground? Of course. It has to. That’s well established. I’m just curious as to why so many of them make this modification to the lift.

Around 1:10 in the video is what I’m getting at. Despite the theatrical size of the weights, I believe it’s actually at standard deadlift height. Nevertheless, it’s a good example of what I see all the time in Strongman.

Shaw, keeps his hips wider than I believe you’d have him. He drops his hips way down, the knees come way forward and, yes, he pulls it. But it’s clearly not advantageous and it’s a competition… So is there a reason besides theater that they do this?

Best of Brian Shaw | Part 1 | World's Strongest Man - YouTube

I'd say a good way to summarize this is that no one pulls heavy with low hips, but a lot of them set up for the pull with low hips.

Why they do it that way, however, is a lot harder to determine... It feels better to set up that way? It's what all the cool kids do? Complexity and trickery seem better? A sort of "lucky sock" level of superstition?

That said, maybe there's an aspect of athletic ritual at play. Specific setups have advantages for physical reasons (consistency of setup, for example), as well as mental ones (getting into a mindset, "switching on", focus...). Of course, a certain five-step setup method also works as a very efficient and effective ritual...

[Frank_B]

Where were his hips and where was the bar over his feet when it came off the ground, i.e. where the deadlift started? We've been talking about this for more than ten years.

The setup procedure detailed in the book generates this position.

I’m not arguing that the bar needs to be anywhere other than the middle of the foot or that the hips need to be in another position. It’s been established probably 100 times between the books and the podcasts that the 5 step setup produces this position and is the most efficient setup position.

Yet, I see big guys in competitions, even Eddie Hall pulling his world record deadlift, rolling the bar in front of them, dropping the hips, etc., Basically: not doing the most efficient setup. These guys are extremely competitive and I’m sure would try to gain every advantage possible.

My question revolves around whether the inefficiency of their setup is offset by some other variable that necessitates they set up this way?

For example: Is it that they’re so big, they can’t get into the proper position unless “in transit” and despite losing the efficiency of their setup, their size matters more? That’s the best I can come up with. It’s been a curiosity of mine as to why these guys do it this way and it’s almost exclusively in the Strongman competitions. I even wrote to Brian Shaw’s Q & A and asked but never got a response. Even the best powerlifters pulling conventional don’t roll the bar in front of them, that I’ve seen. The big difference I see between elite powerlifters and guys like Shaw, Hall, Licis, etc., is size differential.

[Mark Rippetoe]

How about an actual comparison of Novice Cohort A running Starting Strength and novice Cohort B running "standard PT strength program" for 16 weeks. I remember last time I searched a database "Starting strength" returned 0 hits.

You know what the outcome will be, so the hardest part would actually be finding a coach willing to give up 4 months or so of profitable time to actually coach for free, to prove something that everyone already knows, to a bunch of people that don't know it, and don't want to know it, to a journal that probably won't accept it.

All I've ever wanted is to see a paper that details a cohort of trainees running the NLP for a decent length of time compared to the "gold standard"

This is firmly in the category of Not My Job.

[Mark Rippetoe]

I’m not arguing that the bar needs to be anywhere other than the middle of the foot or that the hips need to be in another position. It’s been established probably 100 times between the books and the podcasts that the 5 step setup produces this position and is the most efficient setup position.

Yet, I see big guys in competitions, even Eddie Hall pulling his world record deadlift, rolling the bar in front of them, dropping the hips, etc., Basically: not doing the most efficient setup. These guys are extremely competitive and I’m sure would try to gain every advantage possible.

My question revolves around whether the inefficiency of their setup is offset by some other variable that necessitates they set up this way?

For example: Is it that they’re so big, they can’t get into the proper position unless “in transit” and despite losing the efficiency of their setup, their size matters more? That’s the best I can come up with. It’s been a curiosity of mine as to why these guys do it this way and it’s almost exclusively in the Strongman competitions. I even wrote to Brian Shaw’s Q & A and asked but never got a response. Even the best powerlifters pulling conventional don’t roll the bar in front of them, that I’ve seen. The big difference I see between elite powerlifters and guys like Shaw, Hall, Licis, etc., is size differential.

Frank, leave the man alone. After all, he is stronger than I am, so he has to be right.