starting strength gym
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Limited dorsiflexion and massage gun

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    58

    Default Limited dorsiflexion and massage gun

    • starting strength seminar april 2024
    • starting strength seminar jume 2024
    • starting strength seminar august 2024
    Hello Mr Rippetoe!

    What is your opinion as an SSC about foam rollers, massage guns and other gadgets to affect fascial lines with the aim of improving flexibility and joint mobility? Are they really effective or are they just another commercial fashion in the world of fitness?

    My question comes from the fact that I am considering the possibility of buying a massage gun to apply to the calves and plantar fascia. It has never crossed my mind to buy this type of instrument because I have been improving my joint mobility a lot thanks to the training with the Olympic bar. However, ankle dorsiflexion is what is most resisted and although improvement occurs, it occurs more slowly. My soleus muscles are too short and in my personal case this is the factor that is limiting me from being able to descend correctly in the squat with the bar below parallel. Above all, in the sense of allowing my knees to be in front of my toes. My adductors already have enough flexibility to allow me to descend deep, so my limited mobility in my ankles is the weak link that I need to correct to allow me to execute the technique correctly. I am also interested in improving my ankle dorsiflexion to improve my vertical jump and sprint technique, and other martial arts skills.

    Best regards,
    Hugo

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    53,557

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    What is your opinion as an SSC
    I am not actually an SSC.

    about foam rollers, massage guns and other gadgets to affect fascial lines with the aim of improving flexibility and joint mobility? Are they really effective or are they just another commercial fashion in the world of fitness?
    People like them because they hurt pretty bad, and that has to be helpful, right? Some people swear they help. The problem is that when you roll on a 6-inch diameter cylinder of any composition or surface configuration, the force you are applying to the soft tissue is only compression -- pushing straight down -- without a component of shear, which is necessary to stretch fascias. When a therapist performs a IT band release, for example, he starts at the knee and shoves down at a 45-degree angle while sliding up the lateral thigh, stretching the tendon and the underlying fascias, causing them to release if there are adhesions. Simply smashing straight down is a different mechanical stress -- hurts like hell, but doesn't stretch.

    My question comes from the fact that I am considering the possibility of buying a massage gun to apply to the calves and plantar fascia.
    You cannot apply the same shearing stress to your own legs because of your limited ability to duplicate the angle against the leg that a therapist can apply. Especially your plantar fascia.

    However, ankle dorsiflexion is what is most resisted and although improvement occurs, it occurs more slowly. My soleus muscles are too short and in my personal case this is the factor that is limiting me from being able to descend correctly in the squat with the bar below parallel. Above all, in the sense of allowing my knees to be in front of my toes.
    Unless you have a bony injury to an ankle that has essentially fused it, you have sufficient ankle mobility to display a 10-15 degree dorsiflexion, which is all that is necessary for a deep squat. Squat depth is not dependent on ankle mobility.

    I am also interested in improving my ankle dorsiflexion to improve my vertical jump and sprint technique, and other martial arts skills.
    SVJ is absolutely unrelated to mobility of any kind, for several reasons. You seem to have absorbed a bunch of mythology and incorporated it into your worldview. Like a Muslim.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    89

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    I am not actually an SSC.
    Gosh, why do we even listen to this guy?!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Beitar Illit, Israel
    Posts
    206

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheChubbyViking View Post
    Gosh, why do we even listen to this guy?!
    I found Ripp's responses extremely informative.

    I'm 58, lifting the past nine years; I recently went to a rheumatologist for the first time, and he diagnosed an earlier than typical onset of osteoarthritis. Tendonitis in the shoulders limits my ability to bench, and torn meniscus in both knees led the surgeon to advise me to stop running seven years ago.

    Recently I discovered that I could gracefully jog with less impact to my knees than walking.
    The trick is:
    1. short strides,
    2. not landing on the heel, but rather on the fifth metatarsophalangeal joint, then
    3. simultaneously rolling towards the first metatarsophalangeal joint while the heel then lightly touches ground, and then
    4. propelling off the first metatarsophalangeal joint and big toe.
    5. Trying to land the forward foot before springing off the rear foot (which might qualify the stride as speed-walking in contradistinction to jogging/running)

    However, after not having run in seven years, my calves quickly cramped up, and despite loading up on calcium and magnesium, as well as stretching and massaging, I'm still (three weeks since I started) limited to jogging about one minute before the muscle starts cramping up.

    A few months ago, I thought I was headed for my fourth meniscus surgery, and then I discovered shock-wave therapy that has reduced knee and shoulder pain/inflammation, and improved flexibility; so much so that I just recently started this speed-walking stuff.

    My muscles are tight, lacking flexibility, so I try to regularly stretch. I just began taking turmeric in hopes that might reduce joint inflammation.
    I’ve found this rolling pin to be mildly helpful for my calve and quad cramps (although I also massage the cramped calves with my fingers):


    (Normally I use much more force by using both hands, but i needed to hold the camera to shoot the video)

    And I’ve found using these massage balls helpful in reducing foot pain and improving the arch:
    https://youtube.com/shorts/yI4iibgOuJM


    Regarding your advice (Ripp) on massage via therapist,
    1. What type of school of training and certification do you advise, and what is the name of the massage technique most beneficial for the problems enumerated?
    2. And what’s your opinion on turmeric, these massage balls, and massage stick?
    3. What other advice do you have for treating joint inflammation, shoulder tendonitis, degenerated knee cartilage, and muscle cramps?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Posts
    223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheChubbyViking View Post
    Gosh, why do we even listen to this guy?!
    Because he is pink.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    58

    Default

    SVJ is absolutely unrelated to mobility of any kind, for several reasons. You seem to have absorbed a bunch of mythology and incorporated it into your worldview. Like a Muslim.
    Of course, in a standing vertical jump the ankles are not involved, but in a drop jump during contact with the ground, yes they are. Sorry if I haven't made myself clear enough.

    I forgot to mention that my left hip is a bit locked up. I say "a little" because I have had it much more rigid, but thanks to the fact of doing squats, little by little it has been released thanks to the fact that the hip muscles have improved in flexibility. It is true that I was not able to do the low bar squats at a depth below parallel because that anatomical problem prevented me, but the intention of doing this lift to the maximum possible range has allowed me to improve a lot, and I will continue to do so because I think it's about being patient and insisting until one day that locked hip can finally be released.

    Perhaps, the fact of having the soleus somewhat shortened is a consequence of that hip lock. And although it is not the factor that limits me to do the squat well as you say, it is possible that the release of that locked hip also implies improving the ROM of my ankles, since I have also been noticing some gains in flexibility of these joints.

    Like a Muslim.
    Do not insult me

    You seem to have absorbed a bunch of mythology and incorporated it into your worldview.
    Well, I am a person who reads a lot about Sports Science. Apart from the blue and gray book that I have read twice and will read more, I also read about kinesiology, biomechanics and physical preparation of sports such as athletics. Just like you, I ran away from the fitness industry. It is true that even authors who enjoy great recognition sometimes contradict each other on some details and in the end you end up confused about some issues. But I try to learn from each one what they are really good at, as I have you as a reference in the field of lifting weights and strength training.

    Well, I am a person who reads a lot about Sports Science. Apart from the blue and gray book that I have read twice and will read more, I also read about kinesiology, biomechanics and physical preparation of sports such as athletics. Just like you, I ran away from the fitness industry. It is true that even authors who enjoy great recognition sometimes contradict each other on some details and in the end you end up confused about some issues. But I try to learn from each one what they are really good at, as I have you as a reference in the field of weightlifting and strength training.

    I also read because I have a problem (locked hip and shortened soleus) and I try to find a solution to this problem. The doctors don't have a fucking clue and I don't even let them touch me anymore because they don't know anything about functional anatomy, fascial lines or kinetic chains.

    People like them because they hurt pretty bad, and that has to be helpful, right? Some people swear they help. The problem is that when you roll on a 6-inch diameter cylinder of any composition or surface configuration, the force you are applying to the soft tissue is only compression -- pushing straight down -- without a component of shear, which is necessary to stretch fascias. When a therapist performs a IT band release, for example, he starts at the knee and shoves down at a 45-degree angle while sliding up the lateral thigh, stretching the tendon and the underlying fascias, causing them to release if there are adhesions. Simply smashing straight down is a different mechanical stress -- hurts like hell, but doesn't stretch.
    In the end I'm not going to buy the massage gun. Thank you for making me understand with your reasoning.

    I am not actually an SSC.
    You mean you don't train clients anymore?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    53,557

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo View Post
    I forgot to mention that my left hip is a bit locked up. I say "a little" because I have had it much more rigid, but thanks to the fact of doing squats, little by little it has been released thanks to the fact that the hip muscles have improved in flexibility. It is true that I was not able to do the low bar squats at a depth below parallel because that anatomical problem prevented me, but the intention of doing this lift to the maximum possible range has allowed me to improve a lot, and I will continue to do so because I think it's about being patient and insisting until one day that locked hip can finally be released.

    Perhaps, the fact of having the soleus somewhat shortened is a consequence of that hip lock. And although it is not the factor that limits me to do the squat well as you say, it is possible that the release of that locked hip also implies improving the ROM of my ankles, since I have also been noticing some gains in flexibility of these joints.
    I have talked about this many times: "Flexibility" -- the ability to move a joint around what would be considered a full ROM -- is so seldom a factor in a below-parallel squat that it is really not an important consideration. We have been doing seminars for 16 years, and I can count on one hand the number of people who could not get below parallel Saturday morning. Depth is skeletal positioning, not tendon/ligament extensibility. The kinesiology/biomechanics people have no idea about any of this, because they do not teach large numbers of people to squat below parallel -- we do.

    Well, I am a person who reads a lot about Sports Science. Apart from the blue and gray book that I have read twice and will read more, I also read about kinesiology, biomechanics and physical preparation of sports such as athletics. Just like you, I ran away from the fitness industry. It is true that even authors who enjoy great recognition sometimes contradict each other on some details and in the end you end up confused about some issues. But I try to learn from each one what they are really good at, as I have you as a reference in the field of lifting weights and strength training.
    This is your problem, as I mentioned before. The only thing these people do is write papers, and they don't know anything about this. But they are supremely confident.


    You mean you don't train clients anymore?
    The Starting Strength Coach certification is obtained by demonstrating competence to coach on the platform, and then passing an oral exam. I provided the material, but I have not been tested. You'll just have to trust me.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Garage of GainzZz
    Posts
    3,297

    Default

    How is the soleus, but not the gastrocnemius, shortened, other than say by mechanical intervention, i.e., cutting and removing a portion, or congenital deformation, and to what end?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    535

    Default

    starting strength coach development program
    Say what you want about those massage guns, but it only takes around 12 seconds on the highest setting and my prostate is toast.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •