starting strength gym
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: SS Gyms Podcast #25: Barbell Rehab for Neck Surgery

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    53,557

    Default SS Gyms Podcast #25: Barbell Rehab for Neck Surgery

    • starting strength seminar april 2024
    • starting strength seminar jume 2024
    • starting strength seminar august 2024

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1,110

    Default

    This podcast brought back some dark memories. I had the same injury 10 years ago. Unbelievably fast and complete atrophy of my tricep and loss (paralysis) of use of 2 fingers in my right hand. I was weak before the injury, so starting from scratch. Pain was 10/10 in back, shoulder, pecs, tricep and hand. Very little sleep for 8 weeks. Standing was very painful.

    Neurosurgeon strongly recommended surgery. I'd seen my older brother go through these surgeries, so I refused surgery despite the warnings. I studied SS and made up my own program; I didn't have anyone like Will.

    I used a traction device 5 times per day. I found a series of yoga-like movements that would relieve pain long enough so that I stand up and lift "weights" for 15 to 30 minutes. I figured I needed to create a tiny bit of space between the vetebrae, free up the nerve, build muscle around the spine to support that space, give the nerve time to regrow all the way down the arm, and rebuild the atrophied muscles. I'm sure it was an oversimplified view, but I convinced myself of the plan. My whole family was horrified.

    I was afraid to put anything on my back, so I did very lightweight front squats for months. Once the front squat reached 185 lbs, I had one session with an SS coach who gave me the confidence to transition to a real squat starting at 185 lbs. Press was next to impossible, but I did what I could. Bench and deadlift were ok.

    It all hurt like hell, but it worked...eventually. The psychological aspect of this kind of injury is hard to convey. Seeing progress in my lifts...even if starting with a damned broom stick for "press"...kept me going.

    One thing I did wrong: I should have taken advil so I could sleep. I took nothing. I've since learned you can't heal if you can't sleep.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsuma View Post
    This podcast brought back some dark memories. I had the same injury 10 years ago. Unbelievably fast and complete atrophy of my tricep and loss (paralysis) of use of 2 fingers in my right hand. I was weak before the injury, so starting from scratch. Pain was 10/10 in back, shoulder, pecs, tricep and hand. Very little sleep for 8 weeks. Standing was very painful.

    Neurosurgeon strongly recommended surgery. I'd seen my older brother go through these surgeries, so I refused surgery despite the warnings. I studied SS and made up my own program; I didn't have anyone like Will.

    I used a traction device 5 times per day. I found a series of yoga-like movements that would relieve pain long enough so that I stand up and lift "weights" for 15 to 30 minutes. I figured I needed to create a tiny bit of space between the vetebrae, free up the nerve, build muscle around the spine to support that space, give the nerve time to regrow all the way down the arm, and rebuild the atrophied muscles. I'm sure it was an oversimplified view, but I convinced myself of the plan. My whole family was horrified.

    I was afraid to put anything on my back, so I did very lightweight front squats for months. Once the front squat reached 185 lbs, I had one session with an SS coach who gave me the confidence to transition to a real squat starting at 185 lbs. Press was next to impossible, but I did what I could. Bench and deadlift were ok.

    It all hurt like hell, but it worked...eventually. The psychological aspect of this kind of injury is hard to convey. Seeing progress in my lifts...even if starting with a damned broom stick for "press"...kept me going.

    One thing I did wrong: I should have taken advil so I could sleep. I took nothing. I've since learned you can't heal if you can't sleep.
    I haven't seen the podcast, I'm actually nervous to watch it, weird as that is. First time I had a bad nerve problem was about 15 years ago. Intense pain all down my left arm but there was no loss of strength and no muscle atrophy. Since all I had was pain, I worked over, around and through it the best I could. About 8 or so weeks later, it gradually, but fairly quickly went away and then it was business as usual.

    The second time was on my right side about two years ago only this time it was just as you described, severe pain and immediate loss of all strength and atrophy of the tricep and lat on that side. I could almost watch my tricep atrophy down to nothing before my eyes, it happened that fast. Same with my strength. Whatever strength I had was gone literally overnight. I did the same as you and tried to fix it on my own. After about 8 weeks there was no improvement at all. I could not bench press a 5 pound dumbbell and the pain was horrible. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. I don't think I slept more than 5 minutes at a time or about an hour a day total for those 8 weeks. I did up getting surgery and the pain relief was immediate, though my tricep still suffers from the damage done, and although it's better than it was, it's still weak and atrophied to this day. I can bench press 185 pounds now, though it's heavily left side dominant.

    The psychological aspect you mentioned is right on the money. The surgery made it worse because after neck surgery, you can't really do much of anything for a very long time which only exacerbates the depression. The negative mental aspect of this whole mess can't be over stated. It's not like tearing a muscle, which I've done, where you know from the start it's going to heal and in a few months you'll be fine. I was a mess for a long time, especially when it came to be obvious that my tricep was probably never going to fully recover. It still gets in my head from time to time but I think of people with far worse issues, like missing limbs, that still train despite it and it makes me feel like a jerk for complaining. I may have limited muscularity and strength on one side but at least I have an arm there to complain about and it doesn't impact my daily life outside the gym. I know I'm also in good company as Bas Rutten has a similar problem and he still manages to be cool as hell!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1,110

    Default

    One correction to my previous post: I did not have the "same injury" as Ray. I had a similar injury: c4/c5 nerve impingement might be all we had in common.

    This is an important podcast because these injuries are going to be the norm with the iphone / abs generation. Ray's injury was due to an event. Most people will end up with this impingement from shitty lifestyle, nerd posture and lack of muscle.

    EVERYONE will tell you to get surgery after traditional PT doesn't work. The professionals have no choice; nobody wants this risk on their conscience. The ONLY person who CAN recommend against surgery is you, and this is because the stakes are too high. Without surgery, you could end up with permanent damage. Only you can take that risk. So, you are alone on this journey without surgery.

    Truth be told, you can end with up permanent damage from the surgery too. So, you have to own this injury. I saw a slippery slope with a brother who now has a titanium supported spine. So, I canceled the surgery and took my chances.

    I do remember Rip referring to studies that compare results of surgery for impingement versus no surgery after 1 year. The two scenarios end up with about the same results, if I remember correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by dalan View Post
    I haven't seen the podcast, I'm actually nervous to watch it, weird as that is. First time I had a bad nerve problem was about 15 years ago. Intense pain all down my left arm but there was no loss of strength and no muscle atrophy. Since all I had was pain, I worked over, around and through it the best I could. About 8 or so weeks later, it gradually, but fairly quickly went away and then it was business as usual.

    The second time was on my right side about two years ago only this time it was just as you described, severe pain and immediate loss of all strength and atrophy of the tricep and lat on that side. I could almost watch my tricep atrophy down to nothing before my eyes, it happened that fast. Same with my strength. Whatever strength I had was gone literally overnight. I did the same as you and tried to fix it on my own. After about 8 weeks there was no improvement at all. I could not bench press a 5 pound dumbbell and the pain was horrible. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. I don't think I slept more than 5 minutes at a time or about an hour a day total for those 8 weeks. I did up getting surgery and the pain relief was immediate, though my tricep still suffers from the damage done, and although it's better than it was, it's still weak and atrophied to this day. I can bench press 185 pounds now, though it's heavily left side dominant.

    The psychological aspect you mentioned is right on the money. The surgery made it worse because after neck surgery, you can't really do much of anything for a very long time which only exacerbates the depression. The negative mental aspect of this whole mess can't be over stated. It's not like tearing a muscle, which I've done, where you know from the start it's going to heal and in a few months you'll be fine. I was a mess for a long time, especially when it came to be obvious that my tricep was probably never going to fully recover. It still gets in my head from time to time but I think of people with far worse issues, like missing limbs, that still train despite it and it makes me feel like a jerk for complaining. I may have limited muscularity and strength on one side but at least I have an arm there to complain about and it doesn't impact my daily life outside the gym. I know I'm also in good company as Bas Rutten has a similar problem and he still manages to be cool as hell!
    Damn, your second injury sounds much like mine. Do you know what caused it the 2nd injury? Keep the faith. My strength eventually returned to normal, but it took some years. I'm 60, and my injury was at 50.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    London
    Posts
    22

    Default

    Kitsuma, what was the “program” you devised.

    What were the “yoga type” exercises?

    I ask because I have a similar injury currently and am looking for relief.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsuma View Post
    One correction to my previous post: I did not have the "same injury" as Ray. I had a similar injury: c4/c5 nerve impingement might be all we had in common.

    This is an important podcast because these injuries are going to be the norm with the iphone / abs generation. Ray's injury was due to an event. Most people will end up with this impingement from shitty lifestyle, nerd posture and lack of muscle.

    EVERYONE will tell you to get surgery after traditional PT doesn't work. The professionals have no choice; nobody wants this risk on their conscience. The ONLY person who CAN recommend against surgery is you, and this is because the stakes are too high. Without surgery, you could end up with permanent damage. Only you can take that risk. So, you are alone on this journey without surgery.

    Truth be told, you can end with up permanent damage from the surgery too. So, you have to own this injury. I saw a slippery slope with a brother who now has a titanium supported spine. So, I canceled the surgery and took my chances.

    I do remember Rip referring to studies that compare results of surgery for impingement versus no surgery after 1 year. The two scenarios end up with about the same results, if I remember correctly.



    Damn, your second injury sounds much like mine. Do you know what caused it the 2nd injury? Keep the faith. My strength eventually returned to normal, but it took some years. I'm 60, and my injury was at 50.
    I can't pinpoint any one event that caused it. It started with moderate pain in the middle of my upper back. It constantly hurt but it was more annoying than anything. It felt like there was a huge knot in a muscle. Over the next couple days the pain started radiating into my shoulder and down my arm and that's when the pain got really bad and everything went downhill. Having my bench press go from the low 300's to not being able to control an empty bar overnight was weird and scary. I still can't get my head around how fast it happened.

    It was interesting to read the other part of your recent post. I agree that if there is ANY way to avoid surgery, do that, and that doctors will always recommend it (of course) but the decision must be yours and yours alone. I chose to get it because I had fear that if it wasn't corrected soon, the nerves would be so damaged as to never recover. As it turned out, that may still be the case although your words give me some hope that there's still a chance. If I just had the pain and no muscle and strength loss, I would not have gotten surgery at that point. I'm not sure how much longer I could have tolerated it though. I had already been beyond miserable for over two months and was starting to get desperate.

    I'm really glad you posted your experience and thoughts. Thanks for sharing them.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1,110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Cook View Post
    Kitsuma, what was the “program” you devised.

    What were the “yoga type” exercises?

    I ask because I have a similar injury currently and am looking for relief.
    The "program" was Starting Strength with the modifications mentioned above. Today if I had this problem, I would hire Will remotely. I really had no idea if Front Squats was a smart thing to do or not. These were mods of a sleep deprived, desperate man. The naturopath wanted me moving around the house during the traction.

    I am NOT a yoga guy. A naturopath / chiropractor doctor manually took me through these movements when I was seized up from this neck injury. He sent me home with instructions to work through these movements myself. Rather than trying to describe them, here are a couple videos of yoga ladies doing similar "stretches":

    Yoga for Neck and Shoulder Pain Relief | Restorative Yoga Twist - YouTube
    Restorative Yoga for When It's Difficult to Be Still - YouTube

    There's a lot more to my yoga movements, but you get the idea. Search youtube for "restorative" yoga involving cervical injuries, and use your judgement as to what you CAN do right now. Mostly, the movements pushed my shoulder blades towards the spine while looking in the other direction. I used a bolster for everything.

    I was instructed to do traction 5 times per day using a device like this: Amazon.com
    Mine had a meter on it so I would know how much pressure.

    I used that traction much more than recommended...every hour during the day...to get relief. And, I cranked it up too. Again, desperate times.

    After traction, I'd do the stretches...every hour. I never sat down. I either stood or was on my back on the floor. I heated my back in front of a wood stove at night and then iced it. I "slept" on my back on the floor and sometimes in a very firm bed.

    I focused on keeping my shoulder blades together, chest out, shoulders back, chin in, neck and spine elongated. When on my back, I tried to elongate my spine and neck...I could hear it pop and even clunk. This would give me some relief on that nerve.

    In retrospect, if I had done all these things from the moment I felt a knot in my back, I could have avoided the whole mess. But, I was clueless and stopped moving allowing it to seize up, radiate and damage the nerve.
    It's counter-intuitive, but you gotta keep moving to get through this.

    I hope this helps. Whenever I stop lifting and spend too much time sitting, I can feel a knot returning. It's a powerful motivator. I rarely do the yoga movements now although I should. I have a standing desk for work.

    Oh, I'll throw this out there too. Delta-8 THC (drops) is great for neurological pain like this. I wish I had that during this crisis.

    Good luck. It's a sucky process, but there's worse things we could be facing.

    Quote Originally Posted by dalan View Post
    I can't pinpoint any one event that caused it. It started with moderate pain in the middle of my upper back. It constantly hurt but it was more annoying than anything. It felt like there was a huge knot in a muscle. Over the next couple days the pain started radiating into my shoulder and down my arm and that's when the pain got really bad and everything went downhill. Having my bench press go from the low 300's to not being able to control an empty bar overnight was weird and scary. I still can't get my head around how fast it happened.

    It was interesting to read the other part of your recent post. I agree that if there is ANY way to avoid surgery, do that, and that doctors will always recommend it (of course) but the decision must be yours and yours alone. I chose to get it because I had fear that if it wasn't corrected soon, the nerves would be so damaged as to never recover. As it turned out, that may still be the case although your words give me some hope that there's still a chance. If I just had the pain and no muscle and strength loss, I would not have gotten surgery at that point. I'm not sure how much longer I could have tolerated it though. I had already been beyond miserable for over two months and was starting to get desperate.

    I'm really glad you posted your experience and thoughts. Thanks for sharing them.
    I'm sorry you went through it too, but I gotta say it's good to hear I'm not the only one. It really does sound identical.

    Stay healthy and strong!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    620

    Default

    I really enjoyed this one. I'm just starting out as a PT and Will Morris is someone I could listen to read the dictionary. I don't have instagram but does Will contribute anywhere else aside from the articles on SS?

    The idea of some form of Starting Strength medical network sounds fantastic. I really hope that idea gets off the ground because it's bound to be full of the best people going around.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    London
    Posts
    22

    Default

    starting strength coach development program
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsuma View Post
    The "program" was Starting Strength with the modifications mentioned above. Today if I had this problem, I would hire Will remotely. I really had no idea if Front Squats was a smart thing to do or not. These were mods of a sleep deprived, desperate man. The naturopath wanted me moving around the house during the traction.
    Your detailed reply is very much appreciated, and I'm grateful for the time you took to outline it all.

    I'll be doing the traction and some of the yoga movements, and see what movements I can achieve under the bar.

    Thank you

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •