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Thread: Going to College -- Or Not.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roobo View Post
    On the topic of going to University, I've been having this argument for a long time. The idea that people should be expected to do some sort of research to establish if the course they're going to spend 3 - 4 years of their life doing has reasonable prospects on completion is met with such hostility. ..
    You and Andrew aren't wrong on this topic; you just think too much of people.
    People should go through the questions...but, they won't.
    Even intelligent, hard-working, disciplined people will typically follow the course of least resistance and the path that allows for the most flexibility.
    The path of least resistance is to expect you will be able to figure it out while in university and that the other opportunities for employment will still be open if you later choose to pursue them...
    And those student loans will probably be forgiven in the future anyway, because if they are not, it gaurantees an economic depression and the death of the nation, so might as well take on the debt.
    Worst case, our inflationary monetary policy will probably mean you are paying 10 cents on the dollar in the future if you actually have to pay off the loans.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yngvi View Post
    You and Andrew aren't wrong on this topic; you just think too much of people.
    People should go through the questions...but, they won't.
    Even intelligent, hard-working, disciplined people will typically follow the course of least resistance and the path that allows for the most flexibility.
    The path of least resistance is to expect you will be able to figure it out while in university and that the other opportunities for employment will still be open if you later choose to pursue them...
    And those student loans will probably be forgiven in the future anyway, because if they are not, it gaurantees an economic depression and the death of the nation, so might as well take on the debt.
    Worst case, our inflationary monetary policy will probably mean you are paying 10 cents on the dollar in the future if you actually have to pay off the loans.
    I guess we have to remember that the education system has done a good job of making people feel like a failure for not going into further education. Hell, most of us still use the phrase "dropped out" as a pejorative. Why don't we put more pressure on the education system to inform us of the expected career trajectory in 1,3,5,10 years of a given course? If it were easier to find this information and allow people to make an informed decision it would surely influence the choices that are made?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roobo View Post
    While that 11 page document is relevant, it's a hard read for most. I like to help people by building on concepts they will be familiar with, something like a car moving over a certain distance is displacement (miles - s), this happens over a certain amount of time (hours - t). Plot these on a graph and show using some trigonometry that you can calculate the rate of change (d), specifically in this example the rate of displacement with respect to time (ds/dt) or the miles per hour and that this is the velocity. The time it takes to reach a given velocity is the rate of change of velocity with respect to time (dv/dt or ds^2/dt^2) and this is the acceleration. With a simple example of a car moving someone can understand the basic concepts of calculus that can be built on very quickly.
    Let’s learn about the convex conjugate from calculus. You have two choices:

    1. A long-winded visual interpretation that involves lots of other concepts, which softens the blow of the actual definition, and then the Wikipedia example of its use in finance.

    2. Seeing the conjugate being used in an area of actual personal interest, poring slowly over its formal definition, returning to your application, and forming your own intuitions about its utility.

    Quote Originally Posted by VNV View Post
    ... I have long said, "If whether an airplane will fly or not depends on some function that arose in the design being Lebesgue integrable but not Riemann integrable, then I would not fly in that plane."
    The reliability of airplanes is based on the verification of millions of lines of code, with conditions far more abstruse than integrability. Basically every aerospace engineering disaster arises from a subtle technical mistake rather than conceptual misunderstanding.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roobo View Post
    Why don't we put more pressure on the education system to inform us of the expected career trajectory in 1,3,5,10 years of a given course? If it were easier to find this information and allow people to make an informed decision it would surely influence the choices that are made?
    Because they will tell you that they are not running a vocational school.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiva Kaul View Post
    Let’s learn about the convex conjugate from calculus. You have two choices:

    1. A long-winded visual interpretation that involves lots of other concepts, which softens the blow of the actual definition, and then the Wikipedia example of its use in finance.

    2. Seeing the conjugate being used in an area of actual personal interest, poring slowly over its formal definition, returning to your application, and forming your own intuitions about its utility.
    In this case, I need Both. Fortunately, they are both in the original link, through hyperlinks. Unfortunately, I still barely understand the thing. But it did show me that there's such another thing as "relative convexity", which is cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiva Kaul View Post

    The reliability of airplanes is based on the verification of millions of lines of code, with conditions far more abstruse than integrability. Basically every aerospace engineering disaster arises from a subtle technical mistake rather than conceptual misunderstanding.
    I think Hamming was making a point specifically about robustness, not complexity.

    Have any studies discovered aerospace engineering disasters due to fragile systems? Plausible.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roobo View Post
    ...Why don't we put more pressure on the education system to inform us of the expected career trajectory in 1,3,5,10 years of a given course? If it were easier to find this information and allow people to make an informed decision it would surely influence the choices that are made?
    They flat out lie about this; they inform us of a false reality that fits their interests.
    To make matters worse, many of the academics in the ivory tower have begun to believe their own lies.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by VNV View Post
    In this case, I need Both. Fortunately, they are both in the original link, through hyperlinks. Unfortunately, I still barely understand the thing.
    Anyway, my point is: application-driven ("vocational") learning is associated with a lack of solid fundamentals. But it is arguably more compatible with short, intense, rigorous course material, because the application provides the missing color and motivation. Such learning would appeal to students who don't care for the long, slow cardio of soft, enormous textbooks. These students typically exhibit more capability than compliance.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommanderFun View Post
    I got it from trying to get work in a tech field with a STEM degree, and having my resume go right into the trash for every single entry level job I applied for.
    Did you have the same experience described by Yngvi? In which part of the country did this happen?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yngvi View Post
    You and Andrew aren't wrong on this topic; you just think too much of people.
    People should go through the questions...but, they won't.
    That's part of my point. School counselors - who in my experience, seem to only give advice the opposite of which would make 17 year olds successful - and parents should be going through these questions with the kids they're helping.

    Lenders should demand the answers to these questions as a part of the loan application, but because the of the government's involvement in these loans, the lenders have zero incentive to determine actual viability of payback.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by francesco.decaro View Post
    Did you have the same experience described by Yngvi? In which part of the country did this happen?
    The resumes Yngvi was referring to never even make it to the trash. The HR job application software programs screen out potential candidates before a hiring manager ever sees them.

    The application software checks for age, gender, and race. "Undesirables" never make it past this critical phase of the process. In other words, older white dudes need not apply.

    I've seen it first hand as a hiring manager for engineers.

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