Keep Discussing TRT!

[Buffaloguy]

I'm a practicing physician attending the Hormone Replacement Therapy conference with Worldlink Medical or the first time today. My interest in this subject of TRT was piqued by Mark's podcasts on the subject.

Unfortunately most physicians, myself included, were either not educated or miseducated on these subjects in school. I plan to include testosterone replacement in my practice going forward.

You have a big megaphone and are making a difference discussing this issue, even for people in the medical community.

Thank you

[Mark Rippetoe]

I hope somebody is listening. This is important.

[novicejay]

I hope somebody is listening. This is important.

I am. I was completely ignorant of this subject. I would also request that you keep talking about PSA as well.

By the way, I have two kids in medical school and I have talked to them about this and had them read some of the actual studies that were talked about by the doctors on this site. I did the same for the PSA - I was dumbfounded at how ignorant myself and several doctors I have dealt are about this subject.

[Buffaloguy]

I am. I was completely ignorant of this subject. I would also request that you keep talking about PSA as well.

By the way, I have two kids in medical school and I have talked to them about this and had them read some of the actual studies that were talked about by the doctors on this site. I did the same for the PSA - I was dumbfounded at how ignorant myself and several doctors I have dealt are about this subject.

Your kids in med school can attend this seminar remotely sometime if interested in the topic, its cheaper while you are still a student I believe. Part I: Discover the Power of BHRT | Hormone Optimization Series - November 2022 Session - Worldlink

[Marc Brainich]

My PCP is not listening. Conversation two weeks ago:
Why did you go on TRT?
Cuz at 316 my 12 year old granddaughter had higher levels than I do.
Oh 316 is fine! What doctor?
He’s out in Chattanooga Tennessee.
(Frownie face)

How about having Dr. Nichols and wife Angie on the podcast to talk about hormone therapy for women?

[FatButWeak]

There is a huge part of the TRT discussion that is absolutely ignored by doctors, even on these forums. I understand why its ignored but on a board such as this where controversial topics are freely discussed it should not be verboten. I am talking about self administered Testosterone without doctor supervision.

As free thinkers and people who are skeptic of “the narrative” we should embrace the concept os self administered testosterone and not shrink from it. The “its illegal” argument does not fly, as it is or is not illegal dependent on where you are. In Thailand and Mexico, for example, over the counter testosterone is widely available and legal.

Furthermore, since we have effectively dispensed with the entire concept of “reference ranges” there should be no knee jerk objection to discussions about the administration of, for example, 350 mgs per week, which might yield blood levels greater than, for example, 1500. Those are mere reference range numbers, and are therefore meaningless when discussing individuals’ concerns.

Instead, I want to hear the opinions of doctors about - not how safe it is for a dick doctor doctor in Toledo Ohio to administer 100 mgs per week - what those of us who are self administering TRT in doses that are greater than the customary amounts (i.e. 100-200 mgs per week) should be aware of while self-administering. We have heard how elevated estradiol, blood pressure, prostate, cardiac, cholesterol and other concerns are misplaced. But is that true when test is administered at levels higher than what US doctors typically prescribe?

At what point does what become problematic? If the dose is the poison, at what point does it become a poison and to what organs/functions/structures? How? And what countermeasures can be or should be taken to rehabilitate, mitigate or remediate those negative consequences? If any? These are very important questions to persons self administering test outside of the standard US doctor-patient paradigm.

Also, I understand this board does not want to condone “illegal steroid abuse” so the entire discussion is avoided. But this cowardly, ostrich method of issue avoidance does nothing to help those who need the information nor to enlighten those who simply want a better understanding of the physical/biological/medical consequences, if any, of exogenous test administration.

If we candidly discuss fucking ivermectin we can surely candidly discuss 500mgs of test per week. Thanks.

[J. Keith Nichols MD]

We would be more than happy to do it anytime. I'm glad that some of the information has been helpful
Keith

[FatButWeak]

I would challenge doctors and other knowledgeable, educated guests and commentators to please address the concerns of those of us on exogenous testosterone but who do so outside the paradigm of the United States, doctor-patient relationship and who also do so without regard for usual TRT metrics such as "typical" dosing (i.e. 100mgs/per week) and without regard for the the reference range, which all the guests and commentators agree is bullshit.

So, what I want to know is what if any are the health risks of taking, for example, 500mgs per week? One gram per week? If I want my test to be 2000ng/dl I should be able to do it. We have been told that cardiac, blood lipid, estradiol, prostate and blood pressure concerns are not tied to testosterone usage, but is this true if one goes outside the typical ranges (which we have been told are bullshit) ? If so, is there EVER a point at which there is too much test, and what is it? What ARE the negative implications of high exogenous test?

This is an important question to have answered, especially on these boards, which are full of free thinking iconoclasts who (rightly) question the COVID narrative. Please let's not shirk this discussion because Diane Sawyer once did a 20-20 special in 1991 and taught us all that "steroids are bad." That's not who we are. If thats who we were, we would all be balls deep in our 4th booster of the mRNA gene therapy shot, and dropping dead of sarcopenia from our plant based diets and long distance running. Will any doctor dare comment? Its not illegal in Thailand or Mexico to do this, so the "its illegal" argument against it is stupid. Also, there are plenty of substances that are ingested outside the doctor-patient relationship (alcohol, for one; tobacco, for two; Haagen Dazs chocolate ice cream for a third) that doctors feel comfortable commenting on.

So: when is too much? Why is too much? How is it too much?

Thanks.

[Mark Rippetoe]

There is a huge part of the TRT discussion that is absolutely ignored by doctors, even on these forums. I understand why its ignored but on a board such as this where controversial topics are freely discussed it should not be verboten. I am talking about self administered Testosterone without doctor supervision.

As free thinkers and people who are skeptic of “the narrative” we should embrace the concept os self administered testosterone and not shrink from it. The “its illegal” argument does not fly, as it is or is not illegal dependent on where you are. In Thailand and Mexico, for example, over the counter testosterone is widely available and legal.

Furthermore, since we have effectively dispensed with the entire concept of “reference ranges” there should be no knee jerk objection to discussions about the administration of, for example, 350 mgs per week, which might yield blood levels greater than, for example, 1500. Those are mere reference range numbers, and are therefore meaningless when discussing individuals’ concerns.

Instead, I want to hear the opinions of doctors about - not how safe it is for a dick doctor doctor in Toledo Ohio to administer 100 mgs per week - what those of us who are self administering TRT in doses that are greater than the customary amounts (i.e. 100-200 mgs per week) should be aware of while self-administering. We have heard how elevated estradiol, blood pressure, prostate, cardiac, cholesterol and other concerns are misplaced. But is that true when test is administered at levels higher than what US doctors typically prescribe?

At what point does what become problematic? If the dose is the poison, at what point does it become a poison and to what organs/functions/structures? How? And what countermeasures can be or should be taken to rehabilitate, mitigate or remediate those negative consequences? If any? These are very important questions to persons self administering test outside of the standard US doctor-patient paradigm.

Also, I understand this board does not want to condone “illegal steroid abuse” so the entire discussion is avoided. But this cowardly, ostrich method of issue avoidance does nothing to help those who need the information nor to enlighten those who simply want a better understanding of the physical/biological/medical consequences, if any, of exogenous test administration.

If we candidly discuss fucking ivermectin we can surely candidly discuss 500mgs of test per week. Thanks.

The problem, you fool, is obtaining the testosterone. Before TRT was made available, it was a problem. Most of us don't have access to Mexico, so we have to be concerned about the "legal" situation. And if 500mg of test a week is your question, I'm a coward if I don't answer it? Respond carefully.

I would challenge doctors and other knowledgeable, educated guests and commentators to please address the concerns of those of us on exogenous testosterone but who do so outside the paradigm of the United States, doctor-patient relationship and who also do so without regard for usual TRT metrics such as "typical" dosing (i.e. 100mgs/per week) and without regard for the the reference range, which all the guests and commentators agree is bullshit.

So, what I want to know is what if any are the health risks of taking, for example, 500mgs per week? One gram per week? If I want my test to be 2000ng/dl I should be able to do it. We have been told that cardiac, blood lipid, estradiol, prostate and blood pressure concerns are not tied to testosterone usage, but is this true if one goes outside the typical ranges (which we have been told are bullshit) ? If so, is there EVER a point at which there is too much test, and what is it? What ARE the negative implications of high exogenous test?

This is an important question to have answered, especially on these boards, which are full of free thinking iconoclasts who (rightly) question the COVID narrative. Please let's not shirk this discussion because Diane Sawyer once did a 20-20 special in 1991 and taught us all that "steroids are bad." That's not who we are. If thats who we were, we would all be balls deep in our 4th booster of the mRNA gene therapy shot, and dropping dead of sarcopenia from our plant based diets and long distance running. Will any doctor dare comment? Its not illegal in Thailand or Mexico to do this, so the "its illegal" argument against it is stupid. Also, there are plenty of substances that are ingested outside the doctor-patient relationship (alcohol, for one; tobacco, for two; Haagen Dazs chocolate ice cream for a third) that doctors feel comfortable commenting on.

So: when is too much? Why is too much? How is it too much?

Ah, the kinder, sober, correctly typed (I cleaned the first one up for you) version of the question. The fact that it's not illegal in Thailand and Mexico is an interesting observation, but if you're here in Texas and not prepared to move for Little Brown Sister-access and legal steroids, the argument is NOT stupid. Guys like you are going to fuck around and get the Biden FDA to fuck us up here. And they will do it. Look at the situation in Europe -- if you can't get the shit under any circumstances, it really doesn't matter what wasting 2 weeks worth of a scarce/unobtainable commodity means. If you want to drive to Mexico every 6 months and get the shit back across, go ahead. Then you can learn about 500mg/week like the rest of us did.

[dalan]

Man, I sure as hell wouldn't try to bring anything back from Mexico in this day and age. Being a gringo, I don't trust the farmacias, especially border towns or tourist spots, and I sure don't count on getting through customs. The good ol days are long gone, I do believe. That's not to say it's never done but I wouldn't do it.