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Thread: Acceleration vs top speed

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griffin727 View Post
    Are sprints even worth doing in a athletic setting. I feel acceleration is like the vertical jump (not trainable), but what about top speed. Can one take his top speed from 15 mph to 21 mph by doing 200 meter sprints. Obviously training the squat and keeping a healthy body fat ratio will help.
    yes. Sprinting can be improved, a lot.
    Problem is, most sports-coaches won't train (speed wise) the way that needs to be done to elicit improvements.
    Much of the same problems exist in speed/sprint-training-world, as in the strength-training-world....actually, its very similar.
    Put it this way: you definitely won't get (very much) faster by running repeat 200's.... or er.... not nearly as fast as if you were doing effective sprint training (which is NOT repeat 200s)

    Paradigm has shifted on this lately.
    Top end speed and acceleration is more trainable than what used to be thought.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tom DiStasio View Post
    Dr. Ken Clark has done some pretty cool research on differences in elite sprinters versus team sports athletes. He boiled the main contributing factors to top end speed to three main contributing factors (of which we can potentially have some effect on through training): thigh angular velocity, stiffness (peak vertical force/peak vertical displacement) during impact, and vertical force application. Faster top speeds require shorter ground contact times, greater vertical forces, and also greater vertical stiffness (more vertical force with less vertical displacement during ground contact). To achieve this, the athlete requires an aggressive (more powerful) strike down into the ground and a stiff contact into the ground...basically more force production that goes towards bouncing along the ground versus being dissipated into the body.

    Achieving this is tricky and there is certainly a genetic ceiling on top speed. The factors that come into play are mechanics and force production. Effective mechanics allow for high rotational velocities of the limbs prior to touchdown, and which can lead to an efficient transmission of force into the ground. Both aspects of top end speed need to be trained, so you would have to look at improving mechanics at top speed and then the ability to create more force with each efficient step at top speed.

    What I see this boil down to is that athletes need to work on getting stronger, which gives them the ammo to train their top end speed mechanics at a higher level, and as a result develop a sprint model that is more effective at the aforementioned qualities when maximally sprinting. Despite this, there are always going to be morphological and neuromuscular genetic qualities that come into play here as well. Elite, springy sprinters benefit from top end sprint mechanics to a higher degree than lesser athletes. They have the resources to produce more force in a shorter period of time at a greater level than their donkey counterparts. As such, the payoff from the top end sprint mechanics goes further with them. They still need to get stronger, but they need to practice sprinting to get faster. Bad athletes benefit more from just getting stronger. They can work to maximize their mechanics as well, but they are limited in their ability to produce/transmit force quickly and they are hamstrung by this genetic limitation at top speed. Honestly, I think these athletes benefit more from getting really strong and focusing more on acceleration than top end speed. That's another issue though.

    Long and short of it: training for increased maximal speed involves getting stronger and finding ways to use this strength with each step in a more efficient manner at high velocities. If you are already fast, lift heavy, do some explosive work (Olympic lifts), and practice getting faster. If you are slow, lift heavier, make sure you aren't sprinting at top speed looking like a vulture, and hang your hat on going from zero to twenty meters as fast as possible.
    In maximum velocity sprinting (most of Ken Clark's 'work'), the observation of the impulse of high force hitting the ground (foot strike) is a resultant of the crazy high speed of the legs while they are not in contact with the ground..... the high angular velocities and angular momentum of the legs. The result of the legs' momentum crashing into the surface. You are NOT so much PUSHING DOWN (and back) into the ground, you are whipping your leg/foot into the ground. So the first and foremost priority of the athlete is to move his legs as fast as possible, which is mostly improved at neuro level (coordination, technique, speed, etc). The speed of limbs are crazy fast. Traditional strength training may only help a little bit with this part, if at all (I'm prepared to be shouted down).

    I bet most of the benefits from strength training (barbell lifts, heavy "fahives", etc) don't even really come from "muscular" improvements (increases contractile tissue/components), but from things like tendon stiffness improvements/thickening, and neuromuscular improvements.

    Indiscriminate or unnecessary hypertrophy will just slow the legs down while there are in flight.

  2. #12
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    If the legs are swinging with a high angular velocity, how is that translated into the angular momentum you mention, and then what allows this to propel the body forward along the ground?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmer View Post

    ...Indiscriminate or unnecessary hypertrophy will just slow the legs down while there are in flight.
    Don't most of the good sprinters have relatively large, muscular legs?
    I believe there is a positive correlation between leg size and best sprint times among elite sprinter, with no ceiling in leg size having been yet observed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yngvi View Post
    Don't most of the good sprinters have relatively large, muscular legs?
    I believe there is a positive correlation between leg size and best sprint times among elite sprinter, with no ceiling in leg size having been yet observed.
    It is a well known fact that muscles make you slow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovan Dragisic View Post
    It is a well known fact that muscles make you slow.
    This is a not a safe post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yngvi View Post
    Don't most of the good sprinters have relatively large, muscular legs?
    I believe there is a positive correlation between leg size and best sprint times among elite sprinter, with no ceiling in leg size having been yet observed.
    Absolutely. For some strange reason I sort of follow collegiate track and field. Compare the 100 versus, say a 400. The 100 is all about exploding out of the blocks, creating instantaneous maximum/ peak force production to accelerate. A small percentage of that race is actually at top speed. Pure fast twitch muscle mass. And a central nervous system fine tuned for takeoff when the starting gun goes off.

    You want thin legs? Watch the middle distance runners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmer View Post
    yes. Sprinting can be improved, a lot.
    Problem is, most sports-coaches won't train (speed wise) the way that needs to be done to elicit improvements.
    Much of the same problems exist in speed/sprint-training-world, as in the strength-training-world....actually, its very similar.
    Put it this way: you definitely won't get (very much) faster by running repeat 200's.... or er.... not nearly as fast as if you were doing effective sprint training (which is NOT repeat 200s)

    Paradigm has shifted on this lately.
    Top end speed and acceleration is more trainable than what used to be thought.
    So what is effective sprint training? genuine question.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyGun View Post
    Absolutely. For some strange reason I sort of follow collegiate track and field. Compare the 100 versus, say a 400. The 100 is all about exploding out of the blocks, creating instantaneous maximum/ peak force production to accelerate. A small percentage of that race is actually at top speed. Pure fast twitch muscle mass. And a central nervous system fine tuned for takeoff when the starting gun goes off.

    You want thin legs? Watch the middle distance runners.

    Don't fast twitch muscle fibers produce greater acceleration?
    And, a larger amount of these fibers produces a proportionally greater acceleration of the legs?
    And, greater ability to accelerate the legs means you can move the legs faster, thus producing a faster top speed?
    Further, if you were to improve neuromuscular efficiency, wouldn't the primary effect be a greater recruitment of fast twitch muscle fibers?

    A few more relevant questions:
    How long can top sprinters maintain top speed?
    At what distance does endurance throttle down top speed?
    If you tell an extremely explosive sprinter to accelerate more slowly to a top speed, does his top speed change?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yngvi View Post
    Don't fast twitch muscle fibers produce greater acceleration?
    And, a larger amount of these fibers produces a proportionally greater acceleration of the legs?
    And, greater ability to accelerate the legs means you can move the legs faster, thus producing a faster top speed?
    Further, if you were to improve neuromuscular efficiency, wouldn't the primary effect be a greater recruitment of fast twitch muscle fibers?
    That's not the way it works. Fiber type has more to do with metabolic substrate than contractile speed. And neuromuscular efficiency is far more genetic than trainable.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    That's not the way it works. Fiber type has more to do with metabolic substrate than contractile speed. And neuromuscular efficiency is far more genetic than trainable.
    I agree that neuromuscular efficiency is largely genetic; I was stipulating that as a hypothetical in order to refute the argument that increased muscle mass in the legs might slow down a sprinter.

    Can you explain more about where I am wrong in my thinking (or have blindly accepted ex phyz bullshit) in regards to fiber type?

    My understanding has been:
    -Fast twitch muscle fibers are distinct from slow twitch muscle fibers both in metabolic substrate considerations and in their ability to respond to action potentials; fast twitch motor units/neurons/fibers can be conflated.
    -Fast twitch motor units produce both a greater peak contractile force and average force, which will in turn produce greater acceleration.
    -Fast twitch motor units are capable of generating and responding to action potentials at a rate of about 60Hz compared to as low as 10Hz for slow twitch; fast twitch fibers are able to reach tetanus faster.
    -Fast twitch motor units relax much faster (typically less than 200ms); fast enough that that they can relax fully before the leg accelerates in the opposite direction (about 200ms in elite sprinters) using opposing muscles.
    -A larger muscle will have a greater absolute number of fast twitch muscle fibers, which will produce a greater force and a greater acceleration.
    -A stride consists of an acceleration of the leg forward/up and an acceleration of the leg backward/down; top speed is achieved by the greatest repeated acceleration of each leg in both directions.

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