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Thread: Forbidden discussion: Childhood vaccinations

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yngvi View Post
    I recall him making the argument that people who have been vaccinated against some diseases are more dangerous, because they can by asymptomatic carriers, whereas people who are unvaccinated will clearly be ill enough to avoid other people.
    This is plausible, but unlikely:
    -The asymptomatic carriers will often have pathogen loads low enough that they will not be infectious, except possibly to extremely immunocompromised people.
    -People can be highly infectious before they become sick enough to know to avoid other people.
    -We all know from experience that many people will try to continue working through an illness when they shouldn't.
    Thank you for taking the time to expound your issues for me.

    Regarding your first issues,
    About 20 minutes into the video Del discusses how pertussis acellular vaccines (the type currently used in the USA) only protect against symptomatic disease and do not protect against transmission. Hence, blame can not be put on to "antivaxers" for the rise in Whooping Cough, since both vaxed and non vaxed can be carriers and can transmit disease. He makes the case that blame can be put on the vaccinated just as much or even more, since they are not aware that they are carrying high loads. Agreed, people do go out to work regardless if they are sick or not, but most people who are sick would have the common sense and decency not to approach babies when infected. But if they don't know that they are infected, would approach babies without realizing.

    The study he brings offers a hypothesis that the vaccinated do become asymptomatic carriers of the bacterium at communicable loads. As expressed here:
    https://f1000research.s3.amazonaws.c...bleGateways=52
    "Recent experimental animal data show differential effects of aP and wP vaccines. Perhaps the most direct evidence of asymptomatic carriage and its implications emerged from an elegant series of experiments by Warfel and Merkel at the FDA using a newly developed infant baboon model. The key experiments in this series involved groups of infant baboons who were unvaccinated, vaccinated with aP vaccines, or vaccinated with wP vaccines and subsequently infected via exposure to aerosols of B. pertussis79.
    In each case, vaccine naïve baboons developed clinical illness, whereas aP- or wP-vaccinated animals remained asymptomatic (no coughing or
    lymphocytosis). However, the animals also underwent serial NP (nasopharyngeal) sampling over the ensuing days and weeks, and here, clear differences between the aP- and wP-vaccinated animals emerged. Among the wP-vaccinated baboons, NP carriage was detectable for a mean of 18 days (at low carriage densities) versus 30 and 35 days (at high densities) for naïve and aP-vaccinated animals, respectively. In fact, aP-vaccinated baboons eradicated NP colonization no more quickly than unvaccinated animals."
    We saw a similar discussion regarding the covid vaccines:
    Not in the News: COVID Epidemiology

    Vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals have similar viral loads in communities with a high prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant | medRxiv

    regarding your other points. I need to think them over further.
    Last edited by Gilead; 05-10-2023 at 04:25 PM.

  2. #82
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    And this is why I have lost all trust in the authorities. Healthy safe and honest debate is imperative. But that is a pipedream.
    NYU Bioethics Professor Arthur Caplan, Dr. Paul Offit, & Prof. Dorit Reiss on How to Speak to the Media About the Link Between the Vaccines & Autism

    "You can never really say MMR doesn't cause autism but frankly when you get in front of the media, you better get used to saying it...You're in a debate and you gotta fight unfair"

    From the 2016 "Achieving Childhood Vaccine Success in the U.S.” Expert Panel

    Clip: https://twitter.com/TheChiefNerd/sta...47434195709953



  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven-miller View Post
    This is a fair point...
    Belated and heartfelt thanks for taking the time and trouble.

    IPB

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
    And this is why I have lost all trust in the authorities. Healthy safe and honest debate is imperative. But that is a pipedream.
    Clip: https://twitter.com/TheChiefNerd/sta...47434195709953

    That was disturbing, particularly toward the end of the clip when the smug fat guy shuts down the woman to his right and then she nervously smiles and complies. The feminists should protest.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankNJ View Post
    Clip: https://twitter.com/TheChiefNerd/sta...47434195709953

    That was disturbing, particularly toward the end of the clip when the smug fat guy shuts down the woman to his right and then she nervously smiles and complies. The feminists should protest.
    Link doesn't work. But AI would not have checked that.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Link doesn't work. But AI would not have checked that.
    Try the link now.
    https://twitter.com/TheChiefNerd/sta...0sIRcJEXQ&s=19

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yngvi View Post
    I also will not be doing an in-depth explanation about why the earth is not flat.
    I don't think an in-depth explanation is needed. Both "The earth is flat" and "viruses don't exist" are statements that can be disproved very simply and quickly, by just exhibiting evidence to the contrary.
    Assuming you have an agreement on what acceptable evidence is, which might not be that simple.


    IPB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
    ...regarding your other points. I need to think them over further.
    He may be right about asymptomatic pertussis transmission; I will have to look at it further.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IlPrincipeBrutto View Post
    I don't think an in-depth explanation is needed. Both "The earth is flat" and "viruses don't exist" are statements that can be disproved very simply and quickly, by just exhibiting evidence to the contrary.
    Assuming you have an agreement on what acceptable evidence is, which might not be that simple.


    IPB
    What would be the quick and simple evidence to prove the existance of viruses?

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    Quote Originally Posted by francesco.decaro View Post
    What would be the quick and simple evidence to prove the existance of viruses?
    Maybe johnstt can help us with this.

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