Strategy For Long Term Bodyfat Management

[Robert Santana]

Keep in mind that I had went up and down from 200 to 160 ~4 times prior to this and put weight on the bar in that process. I can't completely discredit the strategy of gaining higher amounts of body weight, and thus body fat, entirely since it is part of my training history. What I will say is that I find that I saw smaller increases as I became more advanced as a lifter, which would make sense because both muscle and strength acquisition slow down. So I'd contend that larger increases in body weight may be more advantageous for novice and early intermediate lifters (or "psuedo intermediate lifters" that never gained weight as novices) than it would for a truly advanced lifter, which lines up with everything discussed in the Grey Book. The longer you train, the more you adapt, the more you adapt, the more your body resists adaptation, the more your body resists adaptation the less adaptation you obtain from each training cycle. So when you put this into context, take a guy like myself, who is no bs advanced, and put 40 lb of bodyweight on him, then it will likely result in fat gain with minimal strength gain because strength gain is minimal regardless due to ceiling effects. At that point, training manipulations become more important than dietary manipulations.

[Mitchell Smith]

You're average height right? Probably like 5'9"? If so, 160 - 200 is a whole different animal than 190 - 230(my range) at equivalent height. We are talking about far greater adiposity in raw numbers, and all the metabolic outcomes that result from carrying that extra fat.

I came out of the army at about 170lb in 2016, got a little fatter. Then started lifting weighing about 185, and ran multiple periods of gaining and losing weight while I either did BS lifting with no intelligent structure, or didn't train at all. This was during my college years and training wasn't a priority or something I knew anything about.

Started LP in early 2018. First proper squat workout was probably 115x3x5 (I am not a naturally strong or athletic person at all). Finished LP with a 285x3x5 squat. Don't recall numbers for the other lifts, probably very similar numbers to where I am right this moment. Bodyweight was probably like 190lb. Decided I needed to diet, and at the time was convinced by Gary Taubes and his ilk that low carb was the way to go. Got on low carb (keto-ish, never measured), dropped 15lbs or so, but had no energy or motivation to train. In fact, I got depressed and rarely left my house (other factors at play here too to be fair).

A while after that I got back into lifting regularly, hopped on 5/3/1 and utilized the "Boring But Big" and "First Set Last" templates. Lots of volume, but very low relative intensity. Ate big and drank lots of milk, grew some decent muscle, and went up to 225 in a flash. It was kinda like a very long accumulation block now that I think about it because I never got to where I was handling anything actually heavy, just lots of volume. This was when I hit my best numbers in everything but the squat (which went backwards after LP).

Then I started getting chronic knee and shoulder pains that were not too bad at first, so I trained through them. After a while I got to where I couldn't train on them (I could still deadlift but couldn't squat, bench, or press). Did my best to train around it while going to a PT for like 4 months and making 0 progress. Total waste of time. Finally got a referral to a different one from a Kinesiology faculty member/Highland Games Strongman Competitor that I really respect and the new PT really helped a ton. So over the last 4-5 months I've been doing rehab and some modified training (conditioning, light front squats and ssb box squats, single arm dumbbell benches, and assistance work). Figured during this time if I wasn't going to be getting stronger, I might as well lose some fat, so I dieted down from 219 - 208, then took a break, then again from 208 - 200.

Just now healed up to where I feel like I can go back to loading the big movements again, so I put together the program I linked in the other thread and started that 2 weeks ago.

[Robert Santana]

You're average height right? Probably like 5'9"? If so, 160 - 200 is a whole different animal than 190 - 230(my range) at equivalent height. We are talking about far greater adiposity in raw numbers, and all the metabolic outcomes that result from carrying that extra fat.

At no point did I suggest staying there long enough for it to be a cardiometabolic problem. In fact, I don't recall recommending you do that either. I simply stated that the short (~3-6 months) periods of acute weight gain may have influenced my progress over the years.

Finished LP with a 285x3x5 squat. Don't recall numbers for the other lifts, probably very similar numbers to where I am right this moment.

Fix this as soon as possible.

[Mitchell Smith]

At no point did I suggest staying there long enough for it to be a cardiometabolic problem. In fact, I don't recall recommending you do that either. I simply stated that the short (~3-6 months) periods of acute weight gain may have influenced my progress over the years.

O I know. I shouldn't have said metabolic outcomes. I was talking mainly about acute insulin resistance, testosterone production, and the idea that it's more difficult to put on muscle mass at 20% than 15% or 10%. I am a little out of my depth of understanding on that topic though, so I don't know to what degree bodyfat percentage influences ability to put on quality lean mass. I just remember hearing Dr. Mike Israetel talking about how your hormonal environment for muscle gain is better at lower bodyfat percentages.

[Robert Santana]

Dr Israetel is right for the most part. I've seen variation here though and this will depend on set point. What I have noticed in general is that when you diet down and get real lean then eat food and train, there is a bit of an overshoot and it appears you do put on muscle a little easier vs doing it fluffier. I think it has to do with going from practically starving to eating again.

[Mitchell Smith]

Dr Israetel is right for the most part. I've seen variation here though and this will depend on set point. What I have noticed in general is that when you diet down and get real lean then eat food and train, there is a bit of an overshoot and it appears you do put on muscle a little easier vs doing it fluffier. I think it has to do with going from practically starving to eating again.

So you do think this really only applies at sub 10% BF levels? It could be, he never quantified that statement, and he (and the people who follow him) are bodybuilders who tend to be very lean. I am not interested in that. 12-15% is as low as I've be interested in being.

[JakeWasHere]

Anecdotal evidence of one person here but I’m somewhere between you 2 size wise, same height but started at a skinny fat 180, did LP and got up to about 210 at 25%ish body fat by navy method, did 2 rounds of category 2 PSMF down to 170 which (navy method again) still had me around 16%. 6 weeks of training later I’ve add 12 lbs and only an inch to my waist, so that and the compliments I’ve been getting are a positive and make me think there is some rebound effect, the negative is that I lost so much strength, particularly in the upper body lifts, that I can’t imagine the benefits of this over shoot would outweigh the the strength cost of dieting all the way down to 10%.

[Robert Santana]

The strength loss is partially a function of changes in leverage and temporary to a certain extent. Once you start eating more carbohydrates it starts to come back quick you just have to adjust to the new leverage. The question really becomes are you bodybuilding or training for strength?