Calories in Calories out, fat storing, macros, protein: A Clarification Calories in Calories out, fat storing, macros, protein: A Clarification

starting strength gym
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16

Thread: Calories in Calories out, fat storing, macros, protein: A Clarification

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    46

    Default Calories in Calories out, fat storing, macros, protein: A Clarification

    • phoenix arizona seminar date
    • texas seminar date
    Hi,

    Energy from protein cannot really be stored as fat, as the conversion of protein to bodyfat is more (or equally?) expensive (in terms of energy) as the bodyfat revenue. So it's a zero-sum affair. I trust Feigenbaum on this.

    My question is an arithmetic one. So, let's say Johnny needs 3000kcal per day for maintenance. If he's at a calorie deficit, he will lose weight (whether muscle mass, bodyfat, or both), and I don't really see any way around that. But if instead he consumes a maintenance amount of energy (3000kcal) or above ...

    ... let's say he gets 2000kcal from fat and carbs, and 1000kcal from protein. I'm guessing that he'll use those 3000kcal for fuel and thus maintain his bodyweight, unless he uses the 2000kcal from carbs and fat for fuel, then 1000kcal worth of bodyfat for fuel, which I'm guessing isn't the case. If he consumes 2500kcal from fat and carbs, and 1000kcal from protein, he'd be at a 500kcal surplus. What happens??? Will he use the 2500kcal from fat and carbs for fuel AND 500kcal from protein for fuel, and just convert the remaining 500kcal from protein to heat energy, i.e. will he maintain his bodyweight despite of a calorie surplus... OR does the body prioritize fuel sources in such a way that he will gain bodyfat? As in, perhaps he uses the 1000kcal from protein for fuel first, then 2000kcal from carbs and/or fat, and then stores the excess 500kcal of carbs and fat as bodyfat?

    All I know is that protein virtually can't be stored as bodyfat, and that calories in calories out is taken as an accurate principle. This leads me to believe that protein is prioritized as a fuel source, at least over fat. I mean, otherwise one could be at several thousand kcal per day surplus and still maintain bodyweight, AS LONG AS the energy from fat and carbs remained below daily energy consumption. How does this work? Does it depend? Like keto for instance, can he be on a calorie surplus and still lose weight? If keto-Johnny ate 2500kcal worth of fat and 1500kcal worth of protein, would he first burn all the eaten fat, and then 500kcal worth of bodyfat because his body prefers fuel sources in that order (fat first (eaten fat > bodyfat), everything else second)? Or would he burn the eaten fat, then 500kcal of protein, and then convert the rest of the energy from the protein to heat, and thus maintain his bodyweight despite of being at a 1000kcal surplus? Also, if he ate 3500kcal of fat and Xkcal of protein, I'm thinking he'd gain 500kcal worth of bodyfat...

    IFF it's true that protein can't be stored as fat (again, I trust Jordan), and that calories in calories out holds, it would all seem to come down to the body's prioritization of fuel sources:

    If protein is less preferred than carbs and eaten fat (but not bodyfat), as fuel, it would seem to be the case that one could lose weight at a calorie maintenance or even surplus, AS LONG AS the energy from fat and carbs are below 3000kcal, alternatively one could maintain bodyweight at a calorie surplus if the energy from fat and carbs = 3000kcal. If protein is instead more preferred than let's say fat, but less preferred than carbs, the math would change somewhat. But again, this whole thing seems to come down to prioritization of fuel sources. I'm sure this prioritization can and does vary but left that out intentionally to make the question more black and white.

    Anyway, I'm sure You get the point of my long ass question. How does this work?
    Please clarify
    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    2,355

    Default

    Fat is always the preferred source of stored body fat because it requires no conversion. If you eat excess calories, you store the excess fat calories first. In order to get into denovo lipogenesis from carbohydrates or proteins you would have to eat an absurd amount for this to happen to a measurable degree.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    53

    Default

    Iím not sure if this distills Adamís question from the wall of text but skimming it made me wonder about the following scenario: Imagine a hypothetical 200lb-ish 40 year old guy who doesnít want to get fat and read that article suggesting that de novo lipogenesis doesnít happen if you only eat protein and carbs. Heís a total couch potato so his daily caloric needs are in the 2000 calorie range. Also he tweaked his back 20 years ago and follows his doctors advice never to lift anything more than 25lbs again. If this guy guzzles a bunch of soda and booze and a fair amount of protein but only trace amounts of fat such that he consumes 3000 calories a day what happens to his weight and body composition? Is this the kind of edge case where the general rules break down?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    2,355

    Default

    He's going to get full before he overeats protein and carbohydrates on a low fat diet.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    46

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Santana View Post
    He's going to get full before he overeats protein and carbohydrates on a low fat diet.
    In other words, Calories In Calories Out, doesn't hold?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    46

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Santana View Post
    Fat is always the preferred source of stored body fat because it requires no conversion. If you eat excess calories, you store the excess fat calories first. In order to get into denovo lipogenesis from carbohydrates or proteins you would have to eat an absurd amount for this to happen to a measurable degree.
    So, is it therefore the case that if one's maintenance Calories were 3000 a day, and one ate 4000kcal a day, but only, let's say 300 of those 4000 Calories, came from fat, that one could maximally store 300kcal worth of fat daily even though one is eating 1000kcal above maintenance? Because since, as you say, protein and carbs are virtually impossible to store as bodyfat, the arithmetic would seem to not comport to simply "the worth of fat that one stores (or I guess loses) is = the number of Calories above maintenance that are consumed".

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    2,355

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by adamanderson View Post
    In other words, Calories In Calories Out, doesn't hold?
    No that always holds

    Quote Originally Posted by adamanderson View Post
    So, is it therefore the case that if one's maintenance Calories were 3000 a day, and one ate 4000kcal a day, but only, let's say 300 of those 4000 Calories, came from fat, that one could maximally store 300kcal worth of fat daily even though one is eating 1000kcal above maintenance? Because since, as you say, protein and carbs are virtually impossible to store as bodyfat, the arithmetic would seem to not comport to simply "the worth of fat that one stores (or I guess loses) is = the number of Calories above maintenance that are consumed".
    No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that it's extremely difficult to eat 4000 calories with 300 kcal from fat (~30 g fat). Try it and let me know how that goes.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    71

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Santana View Post
    No that always holds



    No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that it's extremely difficult to eat 4000 calories with 300 kcal from fat (~30 g fat). Try it and let me know how that goes.
    That sounds like a challenge that he should video and share with everyone.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    46

    Default

    Robert Santana,

    I get you. But if we made those ratios more realistic, I still don't see how CICO holds (i.e. above maintenance calories are stored regardless of macronutrient composition), given the fact that only the calories from fat are/can be stored. I'm not denying that this is the case, I just don't see how the math fits together.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    2,355

    Default

    No one ever said CICO does not hold. We are talking about what it looks metabolically.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •