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Thread: DEXA scan accuracy and the 20% standard

  1. #11
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    • starting strength seminar april 2024
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    I see it commonly said that a good time to lose weight is after novice progression is exhausted.

    I am not looking to become a bodybuilder at 10%. I just want to get to an athletic 15-20% and then continue general strength/hypertrophy training like the routines mentioned on this site. PP doesn't mention any routines to use while losing weight (outside of the novice for fat people). I know minimal actual gains can be realized while losing weight. So do I progress to one of the HLM type routines for intermediate/older people and just keep resetting over and over since I can't progress strength wise?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by crookedfinger View Post
    Am I wrong in thinking that a height/weight discussion is fairly empty without an included reference to current strength levels?

    6' 220 with a 475 pound squat is much different than 6' 220 with a 300 pound squat
    Eh, we'd really need to know what kind of training advancement we're working with, as the absolute strength level is less important IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
    I see it commonly said that a good time to lose weight is after novice progression is exhausted.

    I am not looking to become a bodybuilder at 10%. I just want to get to an athletic 15-20% and then continue general strength/hypertrophy training like the routines mentioned on this site. PP doesn't mention any routines to use while losing weight (outside of the novice for fat people). I know minimal actual gains can be realized while losing weight. So do I progress to one of the HLM type routines for intermediate/older people and just keep resetting over and over since I can't progress strength wise?

    I don't think I agree explicitly with anything you've said here. Why can't you get stronger while losing weight? Is 15-20% BF "athletic"? Why should weight loss "routines" be different?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    Eh, we'd really need to know what kind of training advancement we're working with, as the absolute strength level is less important IMO.
    I was a soccer player when I was young and the first time I worked out was 15 years ago and probably around 6ft and 135lb. A big appetite, teenage hormones, and shit programming got me to "decent" stature. I "worked out" (exercised) on and off throughout my life to keep these "gains". So I was not a rank novice but I never did a true LP like SS, which explains my weak compound movements.

    Earlier in the year I was
    bw: high 170's
    squat: 185x5 (not sure if I was going full ROM)
    deadlift: 255x5 (terrible form)
    bench:190x5.

    Now I am
    BW:~200lb
    squat:275x5
    deadlift: 310x5
    bench: 235x5

    I recently saw an SSC to make sure my form is OK. I will see him again in a few weeks or so to make sure I applied all the tips and to further fix whatever is wrong

    Nothing has stalled yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    I don't think I agree explicitly with anything you've said here. Why can't you get stronger while losing weight? Is 15-20% BF "athletic"? Why should weight loss "routines" be different?
    You're really just being hypercritical of my exact word choices here or just assumed I'm an idiot. Fine, that's fair considering you deal with noobies all day long. I will try to clear my question up.

    I didn't ask whether I should drop the compound movements and start doing bicep machine curls. The programming might have to be different because my recovery resources will be different. Some programs are designed around a reset and expect you to fail and then rebuild up again (Like Madcows 5x5 I believe). However as far as I understand it, Rip's programming discourages stalling. If you are stalling, it means you need to change something up or YNDTP (Like not eating enough calories, which is what losing weight requires).

    In my opinion 15-20% is more athletic than my 25%. If you don't like the word athletic being used to describe that range, fine. I'll call it Timelinex's zone to feel good . My goal is ultimately to be 15-20% and not the 25% I am currently at.

    As far as the getting stronger while losing weight thing goes....... Rip has said as much in his YT podcasts and his books. I understand you can get a little stronger and thats why I said minimal gains (and I should have said "can't progress too much" instead of "can't progress"). Are you implying someone at the end of novice programming that is 20-25% can gain alot more strength while losing weight? Unless we have different ideas of "alot", I don't think that is what you are saying.


    So then. I am currently 25% BF. I have decided that while I ultimately want to be closer to 15%, I will keep the extra fat on for now so that I can primarily get stronger first. When I have exhausted the LP progression provided by a novice routine, I am planning on shedding the extra fat. I know how to lose weight when it comes to diet. However what programming inside the gym do you recommend I use. I ask this since "the bible" (SS/PP) doesn't really delve too deep into programming while losing weight.

    Hopefully that clears up what I meant.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
    I was a soccer player when I was young and the first time I worked out was 15 years ago and probably around 6ft and 135lb. A big appetite, teenage hormones, and shit programming got me to "decent" stature. I "worked out" (exercised) on and off throughout my life to keep these "gains". So I was not a rank novice but I never did a true LP like SS, which explains my weak compound movements.
    My comment was in response to Crookedfinger.... I also am not sure what you're trying to tell me here and this format may not be the best for that, but you can still be a rank novice with an athletic background and having been to the gym before.
    Earlier in the year I was
    bw: high 170's
    squat: 185x5 (not sure if I was going full ROM)
    deadlift: 255x5 (terrible form)
    bench:190x5.

    Now I am
    BW:~200lb
    squat:275x5
    deadlift: 310x5
    bench: 235x5

    I recently saw an SSC to make sure my form is OK. I will see him again in a few weeks or so to make sure I applied all the tips and to further fix whatever is wrong

    Nothing has stalled yet.
    Nice!

    You're really just being hypercritical of my exact word choices here or just assumed I'm an idiot. Fine, that's fair considering you deal with noobies all day long. I will try to clear my question up.
    No, I am categorically disagreeing with what you have said as it has not been my experience that it is true.

    I didn't ask whether I should drop the compound movements and start doing bicep machine curls. The programming might have to be different because my recovery resources will be different.
    I disagree with this- especially how programming is thought about by many on this forum. For instance, if I told you a relatively high volume program can be used during a caloric deficit you might think, what the ???

    Some programs are designed around a reset and expect you to fail and then rebuild up again (Like Madcows 5x5 I believe). However as far as I understand it, Rip's programming discourages stalling. If you are stalling, it means you need to change something up or YNDTP (Like not eating enough calories, which is what losing weight requires).
    I can't speak to these programs' modification requirement, as I would not recommend them routinely. SSLP can be run on a deficit when appropriate without modification, for instance.

    In my opinion 15-20% is more athletic than my 25%. If you don't like the word athletic being used to describe that range, fine. I'll call it Timelinex's zone to feel good . My goal is ultimately to be 15-20% and not the 25% I am currently at.
    Well, it wasn't specific at all. There are many sports where 25% is preferable to 15-20% as evidenced by outcome. You're really just not saying "I want to be leaner", which is actually more useful than saying the word athletic in that it tells me a number of things that may be of benefit to you training and nutrition wise compared to "athletic", which means other things.

    As far as the getting stronger while losing weight thing goes....... Rip has said as much in his YT podcasts and his books.
    He has specifically said you cannot get stronger while losing weight? I do not think this is the case.

    I understand you can get a little stronger and thats why I said minimal gains (and I should have said "can't progress too much" instead of "can't progress"). Are you implying someone at the end of novice programming that is 20-25% can gain alot more strength while losing weight? Unless we have different ideas of "alot", I don't think that is what you are saying.
    I am saying that yes, a novice at 25% BF who wants to lean out CAN ABSOLUTELY get a lot stronger. Absolutely.

    So then. I am currently 25% BF. I have decided that while I ultimately want to be closer to 15%, I will keep the extra fat on for now so that I can primarily get stronger first. When I have exhausted the LP progression provided by a novice routine, I am planning on shedding the extra fat. I know how to lose weight when it comes to diet. However what programming inside the gym do you recommend I use. I ask this since "the bible" (SS/PP) doesn't really delve too deep into programming while losing weight.
    The Bridge, of course.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    I disagree with this- especially how programming is thought about by many on this forum. For instance, if I told you a relatively high volume program can be used during a caloric deficit you might think, what the ???
    Would you agree with the guideline that higher volume programming is better during a deficit because it signals the body to preserve muscle mass more effectively than lower volume, higher intensity programming? Mike Israetel talks about this frequently.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim K View Post
    Would you agree with the guideline that higher volume programming is better during a deficit because it signals the body to preserve muscle mass more effectively than lower volume, higher intensity programming? Mike Israetel talks about this frequently.
    Eh, I don't think that's necessarily true although the principle is correct and I likely agree with Mike I on it.

    Basically, higher volume is almost always "better" than lower volume. I do think that when entering sports form/peaking periods of training for advanced trainees the overall volume will need to be titrated down, but not terribly low their either.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    My comment was in response to Crookedfinger.... I also am not sure what you're trying to tell me here and this format may not be the best for that, but you can still be a rank novice with an athletic background and having been to the gym before.


    Nice!



    No, I am categorically disagreeing with what you have said as it has not been my experience that it is true.



    I disagree with this- especially how programming is thought about by many on this forum. For instance, if I told you a relatively high volume program can be used during a caloric deficit you might think, what the ???



    I can't speak to these programs' modification requirement, as I would not recommend them routinely. SSLP can be run on a deficit when appropriate without modification, for instance.



    Well, it wasn't specific at all. There are many sports where 25% is preferable to 15-20% as evidenced by outcome. You're really just not saying "I want to be leaner", which is actually more useful than saying the word athletic in that it tells me a number of things that may be of benefit to you training and nutrition wise compared to "athletic", which means other things.



    He has specifically said you cannot get stronger while losing weight? I do not think this is the case.



    I am saying that yes, a novice at 25% BF who wants to lean out CAN ABSOLUTELY get a lot stronger. Absolutely.



    The Bridge, of course.
    I certainly know Rip has talked about this one way or another many other times in other videos and texts. I don't want to waste time looking for it, as one example should be enough to get my point across.

    "it is not the typical experience for both processes to happen at the same time {lose fat and gain muscle}."

    Nutrition Basics with Jordan Feigenbaum | Starting Strength Podcast - YouTube
    Also mentioned by you in a different context at 4:40 as well.

    I now recognize that you guys mention "not gaining muscle" rather than "not gaining strength". There obviously is a difference, so my exact words may have been wrong. I just can't imagine an intermediate getting much stronger without also gaining muscle. I would have thought the CNS has already made its "easy" gains that could potentially lead to "alot stronger" results. But obviously I'm no expert.

    Anyways, I'm not trying to be difficult here. Just wanted to point out where I got my assumptions from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    The Bridge, of course.
    Downloaded the ebook and read it. Good stuff. Thanks. I'm not sure if RPE type programming is for me, but I might have a different opinion on that once I reach the need for it and become better at gauging what will be "hard" for me.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post

    He has specifically said you cannot get stronger while losing weight? I do not think this is the case.

    I am saying that yes, a novice at 25% BF who wants to lean out CAN ABSOLUTELY get a lot stronger. Absolutely.
    I seem to hear this a bit. Could it be that people are confusing leaning out and putting on muscle mass vs leaning out and getting stronger?

    It is true you cannot put on muscle mass while loosing body fat, correct? Or is that only true in a trained individual?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by timelinex View Post
    "it is not the typical experience for both processes to happen at the same time {lose fat and gain muscle}."
    This is different than "gaining strength and losing weight" at the same time.

    Also mentioned by you in a different context at 4:40 as well.

    I now recognize that you guys mention "not gaining muscle" rather than "not gaining strength". There obviously is a difference, so my exact words may have been wrong. I just can't imagine an intermediate getting much stronger without also gaining muscle. I would have thought the CNS has already made its "easy" gains that could potentially lead to "alot stronger" results. But obviously I'm no expert.
    I honestly see it all the time with my clients and I don't think that's a unique experience.

    Downloaded the ebook and read it. Good stuff. Thanks. I'm not sure if RPE type programming is for me, but I might have a different opinion on that once I reach the need for it and become better at gauging what will be "hard" for me.
    Definitely man, let me know! I think there is great value in learning to gauge preparedness to train each day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alchemist View Post
    I seem to hear this a bit. Could it be that people are confusing leaning out and putting on muscle mass vs leaning out and getting stronger?

    It is true you cannot put on muscle mass while loosing body fat, correct? Or is that only true in a trained individual?
    Yes for most contexts and certainly yes when looking long term.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordan Feigenbaum View Post
    I disagree with this- especially how programming is thought about by many on this forum. For instance, if I told you a relatively high volume program can be used during a caloric deficit you might think, what the ???
    I'm not hugely active on this board, but I've known a lot of people who went through SSLP, where by the end the work is grueling and you're consuming loads of calories and then we were all clueless how to progress past that (most of us middle aged and fluffy). Various paths were chosen (TM, 531, even some awful "westside").

    It wasn't until a couple years later where I met a guy who had been coached by Mike T. who convinced me to try some higher volume work. I was surprised to find that I could make progress week to week without eating craploads and doing a lot more work in the @7.5-8.5 range and increasing training density a bit (lower rest periods).

    I think many will be pleasantly surprised by the kind of progress they can make where every set isn't an @9.5, every session doesn't take 2.5 hrs, and volume is dispersed over multiple sessions per week.

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