Let's not use hypothetical examples that have not happened in the real world. Post two examples of cases that have similar info to your question here and then we can discuss that.
Member
The Mythical "Recomp"
Jordan-
You have had several podcasts/interviews recently where you have mentioned that, a few rare exceptions notwithstanding, it is impossible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. I have a question regarding how close together appreciable muscle gain and fat loss can occur.
Let's say we have a trainee that will gain 1 lb per week eating an amount of calories we'll label Intake A. He will lose 1 lb per week eating another amount of calories we'll label Intake B. Let's assume he gains weight at a ratio of 75% lean mass and 25% fat and that he loses weight at a ratio of 75% fat and 25% lean mass. I am not sure those are reasonable numbers, but it will work for the purposes of this question.
Our trainee eats Intake A for 6 weeks. He gains 6 lbs during this time, 4.5 lbs lean mass and 1.5 lbs fat. Then he eats Intake B for 6 weeks. He loses 6 lbs during this time, 4.5 lbs fat and 1.5 lbs lean mass. At the end of this 12 weeks, he has thus gained 3 lbs lean mass and lost 3 lbs of fat. He has "recomped."
To the question (finally). If the trainee instead ate Intake A one day and Intake B the next, alternating everyday for 12 weeks, could the same results be expected? I doubt it, but I don't really know why not. What is the physiological base for it? Assuming this would not work, how short could the "gaining" and "losing" time frames be and still be effective? A week? Two weeks? Just curious what accounts for this.
Thanks, hope you're doing well,
Rick
✓ Member
Let's not use hypothetical examples that have not happened in the real world. Post two examples of cases that have similar info to your question here and then we can discuss that.
Member
I know of no one who has actually tried both of these approaches. I'm more wondering about how the body adapts to given caloric loads and how long it takes to truly react to a given level of calories with either appreciable lean mass gain or appreciable fat loss. I understand not wanting to play hypothetical games though. I will research it on my own. Thanks for your time, and I hope all is well.
✓ Member
What I am getting at is that your question cannot be done in real life and thus, makes for an impossible question to answer. Therefore, you cannot research it on your own. The question needs to be reformulated to answer anything about the body's reaction to caloric intake.Originally Posted by RickBarker
Member
It makes complete sense as a layman why the body can’t gain muscle while it loses fat. It seems like the best survival protocol for the body
✓ Member
My take on the question:
A subject eats with a calorie surplus of x(1) for time t(1) and gains total mass m(1), some percentage of which is fat mass f(1). Same subject then eats with a calorie deficit of x(2) for time t(2) and loses total mass m(2), some percentage of which is fat mass f(2).
We can place some constraints on our variables such that m(1) = m(2) and f(2) > f(1). All that means is that our subject gained weight and then lost an equal amount of weight and did so in such a way as to decrease total fat mass and increase total lean mass (by manipulating x(1), x(2), t(1), t(2), training variables, macros, etc.).
x(1) and x(2) are usually in the hundreds of calories. t(1) and t(2) are generally weeks or months. I think the point of the question was to get your take on how small we can make the time variables and how we mifht go about doing it. I think the specific numbers he used in the hypothetical get in the way of the actual question, but maybe I'm missing something else. Thoughts?
✓ Member
I'm not really sure I understand the equation, but then again I'm not terribly gifted in that arena either....
Member
I understood the initial question and the equation.
What part of the question keeps it from being done in real life?
Member
Let me give an actual real-life example:
In September 2016 I was at BF~15%, weighing 77kg. Fatless mass was about 65.45kg
In February 2017 I was at BF~17%, at 85kg, so that fatless mass was about 70,89kg.
In June of 2017, I was at BF~15, at 82kg, so that fatless mass was about 69.7kg.
The "cut" from February to June was mostly due to running etc, instead of actually deliberately cutting. But I think in the lines of the OP question, this, say, about 4kg increase in lean bodymass in about 10 months, would it be possible if, *say* I had a diet-exercise pattern 6 weeks up, four weeks down? What about trying to do 6 *days* up and 4 *days* down? What happens at the limit, i.e., how short a cycle is too short and why? What metabolic constraints are there such that you just cant make a bulk/cut cycle shorter after some point for it to be effective?
From what I understand, the absolute lower limit is the timeframe during which muscle protein synthesis can remain elevated due to training effect, and you tend to train again either inside of, or right at the end of this timeframe, so any calorie deficit inside there will eat at your gains; if there is any compound positive effect on MPS this way, you'd expect that the cycle should be significantly longer than this. But how long? I am curious as well.
Member
I don't blame you. I think the question(s) might be fairly simple but it's been totally obfuscated by weird made up data and equations. Let me try:
1. What's the time frame (shortest - longest) for a productive cut?
2. How do you weight cycle? (how long/hard do you cut, and how long do you bulk)
3. What numbers could you expect to see on the way down and the way up? (I'm sure the answer to this varies wildly for each individual, but the OP seems to be interested)
As a fairly typical example on these forums -- take a 200 lb male with over 20% bf. How does he transform into a 200 lb male with 15% bf (while either making strength gains or maintaining as much as possible)? Let's assume he's not a novice so can't take advantage of that novice recomp magic most SS coaches seem to agree is a thing. The math for this example is pretty simple: he's currently carrying around over 40 lbs of fat, and wants to be carrying around closer to 30 lbs at his current weight. He needs a mechanism to replace >10 lbs of fat with >10 lbs of LBM. Since we know he cannot lose fat without also losing some muscle, he logically has to cut and bulk at least once.
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