First Time Cutting, Lost A Lot of Strength

[David McClelland]

I started a cut last week going into intermediate programming, as I gained quite a bit of fat during NLP (which I've now fully exhausted) and am experiencing what I feel to be extreme strength losses in squat.

Some info about me before cutting;

I'm 46, 5'9", and was 209 at I'd estimate around 25% bodyfat. I could be wrong about that, but I got quite a gut.

I started SS on Nov 10 of last year, which put me at roughly 10 weeks of training or 2 1/2 months.

In that time I achieved the following (weight in lbs);

11/10/17 - 1/18/18
Bodyweight: 170 - 200
Squat: 95 - 255
Deadlift: 135 - 260
Bench Press: 115 - 180
Press: 65 - 125
Chin Ups: 80 - 42.5 (on machine allowing weighted assist aka lower is better)

Two things happened after this. My strength gains during the low bar squat came to a grinding halt within a couple of work outs while also the pain in my arms got so bad I couldn't finish a couple upper body work outs afterwards. I tried everything to fix the arm issue but until I can get in person coaching (which I plan on in the future) I switched to high bar squat to keep the squatting and work outs going. I had to both do a reset and reduce weight to accommodate high bar squat. After the reset I added in a light squat day. During that time I also injured my elbow (got severe golfer's elbow) doing chin ups so had to stop both doing that and eventually deadlifts because the pain in that elbow was unbearable and quite alarming. My deadlift was around 315 when that happened.

On 3/9/18 my NLP ended at;

Bodyweight: 209
Squat: 265 (high bar)
Bench Press: 210
Press: 142

I simply maintained these numbers for a week until I decided where I wanted to go with my programming and if I wanted/needed to cut, which is what I decided to do, using HLM as suggested by Andy Baker.

In the middle of last week I maintained my protein at about 200 grams and fat stayed the same, but I cut my carbs down to 1/2 gram per lb of bodyweight.

Immediately I lost strength and was only able to complete 1 set of 250 for 5 reps, and the 2nd for 4, I could not do a 5th rep or I would have failed. That's how intense it was.

I continued my diet change this weekend to see how it would go. Sunday morning I weighed 204 lbs (I figured the 5 lb loss was water?). I did a cheat meal that night for enough energy to do heavy day and today for my heavy day, which I was supposed to complete 265x5 reps for 3-4 sets, I had to reduce weight even more from medium day down to 245 for 3 reps. To keep volume up I did 3x5. Press strength has remained constant, strangely.

As someone who has an extremely difficult time losing fat once I gain it, where do I go from here? Is the strength loss I experienced a one time thing or am I going to continue to plummet? If so how do I go about managing this? I could go back up to what I was doing before with my diet, and then just keep cutting carbs by 25 grams per week to see how it goes, but this seems like it might take months to work out.

I'd like to do this as efficiently as possible while wasting as little time as possible, without losing a lot of strength.

Thanks for any suggestions!

[Robert Santana]

I started a cut last week going into intermediate programming, as I gained quite a bit of fat during NLP (which I've now fully exhausted) and am experiencing what I feel to be extreme strength losses in squat.

Some info about me before cutting;

I'm 46, 5'9", and was 209 at I'd estimate around 25% bodyfat. I could be wrong about that, but I got quite a gut.

I started SS on Nov 10 of last year, which put me at roughly 10 weeks of training or 2 1/2 months.

In that time I achieved the following (weight in lbs);

11/10/17 - 1/18/18
Bodyweight: 170 - 200
Squat: 95 - 255
Deadlift: 135 - 260
Bench Press: 115 - 180
Press: 65 - 125
Chin Ups: 80 - 42.5 (on machine allowing weighted assist aka lower is better)

Two things happened after this. My strength gains during the low bar squat came to a grinding halt within a couple of work outs while also the pain in my arms got so bad I couldn't finish a couple upper body work outs afterwards. I tried everything to fix the arm issue but until I can get in person coaching (which I plan on in the future) I switched to high bar squat to keep the squatting and work outs going. I had to both do a reset and reduce weight to accommodate high bar squat. After the reset I added in a light squat day. During that time I also injured my elbow (got severe golfer's elbow) doing chin ups so had to stop both doing that and eventually deadlifts because the pain in that elbow was unbearable and quite alarming. My deadlift was around 315 when that happened.

On 3/9/18 my NLP ended at;

Bodyweight: 209
Squat: 265 (high bar)
Bench Press: 210
Press: 142

I simply maintained these numbers for a week until I decided where I wanted to go with my programming and if I wanted/needed to cut, which is what I decided to do, using HLM as suggested by Andy Baker.

In the middle of last week I maintained my protein at about 200 grams and fat stayed the same, but I cut my carbs down to 1/2 gram per lb of bodyweight.

Immediately I lost strength and was only able to complete 1 set of 250 for 5 reps, and the 2nd for 4, I could not do a 5th rep or I would have failed. That's how intense it was.

I continued my diet change this weekend to see how it would go. Sunday morning I weighed 204 lbs (I figured the 5 lb loss was water?). I did a cheat meal that night for enough energy to do heavy day and today for my heavy day, which I was supposed to complete 265x5 reps for 3-4 sets, I had to reduce weight even more from medium day down to 245 for 3 reps. To keep volume up I did 3x5. Press strength has remained constant, strangely.

As someone who has an extremely difficult time losing fat once I gain it, where do I go from here? Is the strength loss I experienced a one time thing or am I going to continue to plummet? If so how do I go about managing this? I could go back up to what I was doing before with my diet, and then just keep cutting carbs by 25 grams per week to see how it goes, but this seems like it might take months to work out.

I'd like to do this as efficiently as possible while wasting as little time as possible, without losing a lot of strength.

Thanks for any suggestions!

Thanks for posting buddy. In general, cutting will make strength training more difficult and often times you'll lose some weight off the bar. That part is typically expected. Now, the most obvious issue I see here is the 1/2 gram of carb per lb of body weight. This means you are eating ~100 grams of carbohydrates per day. The symptoms you are describing as well as the rate at which they manifested is precisely what I would expect from a low carbohydrate intake. Why don't you try bumping your carbs back up and cut the equivalent amount of calories from fat? You will likely feel better, continue to lose fat, and train reasonably throughout the process.

[David McClelland]

Thanks for posting buddy. In general, cutting will make strength training more difficult and often times you'll lose some weight off the bar. That part is typically expected. Now, the most obvious issue I see here is the 1/2 gram of carb per lb of body weight. This means you are eating ~100 grams of carbohydrates per day. The symptoms you are describing as well as the rate at which they manifested is precisely what I would expect from a low carbohydrate intake. Why don't you try bumping your carbs back up and cut the equivalent amount of calories from fat? You will likely feel better, continue to lose fat, and train reasonably throughout the process.

Thanks for the speedy response. Well that's kinda good news to hear because I was eating a low fat diet before I started this SS voyage and I'm very experienced with it. I hadn't thought of that this time around since no one in the SS community really ever talks about fat, just carb manipulation. I assumed it was just really anabolic and not to mess with counting it. There's a bit of fat I can cut out (peanut butter in my protein shakes, mayo on my sandwiches, double burgers and hamburger steaks on the weekends, etc.). I can even do egg whites and leave out the yolks for my eggs if need be.

My body likes carbs, especially my brain, and I've not been thrilled to even be awake during much of the time since I cut them out. I can't even do good on my video games anymore! I'm sure you could imagine my mood in the gym doing squats. :-)

I'll do what you suggested and see how it goes.

Thanks so much for the help it is appreciated!

[David McClelland]

Oh I also wanted to ask for your take on higher glycemic carbs. I used to drink Stevia in my coffee which I recently started back doing for the cut and I'm not thrilled about it. I was also eating grits (they're easy and fast), which are higher glycemic on their own, but I was eating them with eggs. In fact, the eggs, grits and coffee are my breakfast so they're all ingested at the same time and it's right before I go to the gym. Do you think it would be ok to add that back in with the eggs? I've been eating three whole eggs, so I could eat one whole egg and 2 egg whites this time. I figured the eggs added good value to the glycemic load so never worried about it before.

[Robert Santana]

Oh I also wanted to ask for your take on higher glycemic carbs. I used to drink Stevia in my coffee which I recently started back doing for the cut and I'm not thrilled about it. I was also eating grits (they're easy and fast), which are higher glycemic on their own, but I was eating them with eggs. In fact, the eggs, grits and coffee are my breakfast so they're all ingested at the same time and it's right before I go to the gym. Do you think it would be ok to add that back in with the eggs? I've been eating three whole eggs, so I could eat one whole egg and 2 egg whites this time. I figured the eggs added good value to the glycemic load so never worried about it before.

You are very welcome! Higher GI carbs work great before or during a training session. Stevia is an artificial sweetener so the caloric content is marginal. If you are worried about glycemic control with regards to your other meals, just make sure you eat your carbs mixed with protein and fiber and you'll be golden. Eggs are a good example of this :-).

[FarsightedJonesy]

Robert is right. As soon as I cut back my fat intake and added the appropriate amount of carbs I started to lose body fat and still felt really good in the gym. Thank you Robert.

[Ericreichelt81]

It's not my area of knowledge, but I eat almost high gi carbs, and I feel much better doing so. I've found what I like, but I can out down up to about 150grams in a sitting and feel the same as always. I did low gi carbs for years, then just started trying foods that were higher to see the outcome. Just as an example, one of my go to meals is like 2 cups cottage cheese with a dry cereal mixed in. I like honey bunches of oats.

[Robert Santana]

Robert is right. As soon as I cut back my fat intake and added the appropriate amount of carbs I started to lose body fat and still felt really good in the gym. Thank you Robert.

You are very welcome!

It's not my area of knowledge, but I eat almost high gi carbs, and I feel much better doing so. I've found what I like, but I can out down up to about 150grams in a sitting and feel the same as always. I did low gi carbs for years, then just started trying foods that were higher to see the outcome. Just as an example, one of my go to meals is like 2 cups cottage cheese with a dry cereal mixed in. I like honey bunches of oats.

GI becomes less relevant once you mix in other macronutrients so this is not surprising. I eat pretty high GI myself.

[Amaan Chohan]

Hi Robert,
I've been reading around on cutting on these forums for a while and often came across people advocating ketogenic diets, reading your comments above you basically are recommending the opposite, what are your thoughts on this?

[Robert Santana]

Hi Robert,
I've been reading around on cutting on these forums for a while and often came across people advocating ketogenic diets, reading your comments above you basically are recommending the opposite, what are your thoughts on this?

Depends on what they are advocated for. They are not compatible with effective training aimed at improving performance.