When to Stop Cutting And Bulking

[savageJack908]

Hey Robert,

To preface just some quick stats on me:

Male, 24 years old, 5'10", 186 lbs, 35.5 inch waist.
Best Lifts: Squat 350x5, Bench 210x5, Press 145x5, Deadlift 365x3x2

I did my novice LP and bulked while doing it which brought me from around 162 lbs and a 32 inch waist up to 187 lbs with a 36 inch waist. I started cutting some weight as I thought my waist size went up a bit fast during that bulk. Going forward I have two questions.

1) Did I stop bulking too early? I know you've said a 40 inch waist circumference is the upper limit for health. Should I bulk to the 38-40 inch range before I cut weight?

2) When do you typically suggest your clients stop losing weight? Do you do it by waist circumference? Or a body fat percentage estimate? I was pretty skinny before I started Starting Strength and I'm really enjoying the added muscle mass and strength, but eventually I'd like to get my abs back.

Thanks Rob,
Jack

[Robert Santana]

Hey Robert,

To preface just some quick stats on me:

Male, 24 years old, 5'10", 186 lbs, 35.5 inch waist.
Best Lifts: Squat 350x5, Bench 210x5, Press 145x5, Deadlift 365x3x2

I did my novice LP and bulked while doing it which brought me from around 162 lbs and a 32 inch waist up to 187 lbs with a 36 inch waist. I started cutting some weight as I thought my waist size went up a bit fast during that bulk. Going forward I have two questions.

1) Did I stop bulking too early? I know you've said a 40 inch waist circumference is the upper limit for health. Should I bulk to the 38-40 inch range before I cut weight?

2) When do you typically suggest your clients stop losing weight? Do you do it by waist circumference? Or a body fat percentage estimate? I was pretty skinny before I started Starting Strength and I'm really enjoying the added muscle mass and strength, but eventually I'd like to get my abs back.

Thanks Rob,
Jack

Hi Jack!

Thanks for reaching out! Congrats on the gains buddy! I’d say if you’re still making progress under the bar just keep lifting and don’t worry about gaining more. If you think a little bit more weight may give you more leverage under the bar then go for it. Just be careful with gaining too much around the mid section because at s certain point it will interfere with pulls from the floor.

How are your lifts currently progressing?

[savageJack908]

Thanks for the quick reply Coach,

So before I go into how my lifts are progressing I think it makes sense to tell you about my calorie and macro intake. During the novice LP I started off around 2500 calories a day and adjusted up to the point where I was eating about 3500 a day. For my macros I typically try to get my body weight in grams of protein, 1/3 of my body weight in grams of fat, and fill in the rest of the calories with carbs. My neck is only about 14.5 inches in circumference so once I hit 187 and my waist was getting to be about 36 inches I decided to cut as it was looking a bit awkward with my bone structure.

I started off my cut with 2500 calories which put me at maintenance for about 2 weeks. After that jumped down to 2000 calories but I was only losing 0.5 lbs per week . The past 2 weeks I've been getting about 1800 calories a day and dropping about 1 pound per week.

Since starting this cut my squats have moved into intermediate style programming and I've been doing the Texas method. Weekly progress has been going nicely (5 lbs / week) however getting motivated to do volume day with 1800 kcals in you is tough. Both my press and bench press have moved into advanced novice programming where I'm using 2.5 lbs increments and doing a top set of 5 followed by 2 back-off sets at 95%. Last week I had my first miss on both of these lifts as I only got 4 reps on my bench and press, so more intermediate style programming is coming soon. The deadlift I've switched from one set of 5 to 2 sets of 3. That's working well for now as I'm still adding 5 lbs per workout. Once I finish running it out I'll probably do some sort of intermediate style programming where I'll be doing 2 or 3 sets of 5 deficit deadlifts on volume day and 1x5 on intensity day

[Robert Santana]

Thanks for the quick reply Coach,

So before I go into how my lifts are progressing I think it makes sense to tell you about my calorie and macro intake. During the novice LP I started off around 2500 calories a day and adjusted up to the point where I was eating about 3500 a day. For my macros I typically try to get my body weight in grams of protein, 1/3 of my body weight in grams of fat, and fill in the rest of the calories with carbs. My neck is only about 14.5 inches in circumference so once I hit 187 and my waist was getting to be about 36 inches I decided to cut as it was looking a bit awkward with my bone structure.

I started off my cut with 2500 calories which put me at maintenance for about 2 weeks. After that jumped down to 2000 calories but I was only losing 0.5 lbs per week . The past 2 weeks I've been getting about 1800 calories a day and dropping about 1 pound per week.

Since starting this cut my squats have moved into intermediate style programming and I've been doing the Texas method. Weekly progress has been going nicely (5 lbs / week) however getting motivated to do volume day with 1800 kcals in you is tough. Both my press and bench press have moved into advanced novice programming where I'm using 2.5 lbs increments and doing a top set of 5 followed by 2 back-off sets at 95%. Last week I had my first miss on both of these lifts as I only got 4 reps on my bench and press, so more intermediate style programming is coming soon. The deadlift I've switched from one set of 5 to 2 sets of 3. That's working well for now as I'm still adding 5 lbs per workout. Once I finish running it out I'll probably do some sort of intermediate style programming where I'll be doing 2 or 3 sets of 5 deficit deadlifts on volume day and 1x5 on intensity day

Texas Method is a lifters program and should be treated as such. There is no room for a caloric deficit on this type of program and is an easy way to get injured. You are going to have to decide what you'd like to do but you cannot effectively run Texas Method without sufficient calories, specifically carbohydrates.

[savageJack908]

Fair enough, I could switch to an HLM type split as I cut. My original question still stands, when do you typically tell your clients to stop gaining or losing weight? I know for gaining weight starting strength generally advocates not going above a 38-40 inch waist due to increased health risks. Is there a point that you generally tell your clients to stop losing weight? Do you do it by waist? body-fat percentage estimate? My primary goal is to get strong but my vanity does play a role I'll admit.

From what I've read, the best way to add muscle and strength is to bulk, however gaining weight inevitably leads to fat gain. Once you start to get too fat (waist in the 38-40 inch range) you cut weight to get rid of the fat you gained while bulking up. This will lead you to a similar body fat percentage as when you started however your weight will by higher due to the lean mass gained during the bulking phase. Iterating through this process is supposedly the best way to gain strength and lean body mass while not compromising your health and getting fat. Generally speaking, do you agree with this process? If so when do generally suggest people stop losing weight during their cutting phases? If you don't agree with this process, is there a different protocol you recommend?

Thanks again for helping me out, all the stuff you contribute here is great.

[Robert Santana]

Fair enough, I could switch to an HLM type split as I cut. My original question still stands, when do you typically tell your clients to stop gaining or losing weight? I know for gaining weight starting strength generally advocates not going above a 38-40 inch waist due to increased health risks. Is there a point that you generally tell your clients to stop losing weight? Do you do it by waist? body-fat percentage estimate? My primary goal is to get strong but my vanity does play a role I'll admit.

From what I've read, the best way to add muscle and strength is to bulk, however gaining weight inevitably leads to fat gain. Once you start to get too fat (waist in the 38-40 inch range) you cut weight to get rid of the fat you gained while bulking up. This will lead you to a similar body fat percentage as when you started however your weight will by higher due to the lean mass gained during the bulking phase. Iterating through this process is supposedly the best way to gain strength and lean body mass while not compromising your health and getting fat. Generally speaking, do you agree with this process? If so when do generally suggest people stop losing weight during their cutting phases? If you don't agree with this process, is there a different protocol you recommend?

Thanks again for helping me out, all the stuff you contribute here is great.

You are very welcome and thank you for the kind words!

Yes, I agree with this process. That being said, when we work with individuals 1:1 variability inevitably rears it's head in and those numbers may be different for different people. For instance, my waistline stays between 30-32" unless I'm feeling ambitious and want to see abs then I'll go to 29." I've effectively gotten stronger in that range and I don't have a problem. That being said when I did push my waist up to 38" I got a litlte bit stronger with a whole lot of weight gain. More importantly, when I took myself from 38" to 28.75" my lifts dropped ~5% and then I had to work them back up while allowing my waistline to go up to 31.5" which is where it sits most days. All of my lifts are now PRs with a 31.5" waistline. So you really just have to decide where you want to hang out, see if you can get stronger there, and if you can't scale up slowly. Ultimately a game of trial and error but if your waist is larger than you are comfortable with then you have to accept some strength loss when you finally decide to bring it back down a range that you prefer. It will eventually come back and then some but its a long game type deal there.