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Hi, Mark.
I'm a fan of MMA, and I know now that fighters cut water weight to make weight for a weight class - so a LHW wouldn't weigh 205 on fight night, for example. I'm just curious as to see your opinion on strength training for these guys - should they focus on NOT putting on muscle, or put on muscle and strength and fight at a higher weight class?
PS I'm not a fighter, just curious.
Depends on age, frame, and other factors, for all weight-class sports. As a general rule, I don't like to see guys remain small, and I certainly as hell don't like to see kids abused by their coaches with assignment to lighter weight classes than they should be in. If an adult wants to stay in a lighter class, fine with me, if it's for the right reasons. Staying artificially light so that you don't get beaten in a heavier class is not the right reason, because you don't know until you've been there that you wouldn't do better at a heavier bodyweight.
One of the most interesting stories to watch is Anthony Johnson in the UFC. Talent coming out his ears but insisted on fighting at 170 lbs and had kind of a mediocre initial run in the UFC. Its rumored he was cutting up to 35 lbs in the final day or so. Now he is back in the UFC in his second stint as a LHW. Still cutting weight to make 205 but appears to be just as quick and fast as before.
One factor that has to be considered is height. If you were 5'5 for example, you may be okay to compete in powerlifting as a heavyweight. If you were 5'5 and wanted to box however, you would most likely not even consider competing at heavyweight. Not just because you would be fat and probably slower/less conditioned than you would be at a lighter weight, but also because you would be fighting opponents much taller than yourself. There hasn't been a heavyweight champion in modern boxing shorter than 5'11.
You have to take into account height/frame/wingspan etc, experience, how weight affects conditioning/speed/technique etc. It would be foolish to suggest trying NOT to put on muscle however, as with everything else being equal, I'm sure you'd want to have an extra few lbs of muscle over and extra few lbs of fat.
It also depends a lot on how you are fighting and under what ruleset. In amateur boxing for example, each hit is worth one point regardless of the power behind it, while in professional boxing each round is also scored based of damage done, aggressiveness etc and not just the individual hits. In amateur boxing it is almost always better to be the taller, lankier guy. Amateur boxing is also only three rounds with 3 minutes each, and you wear a helmet, so knockouts are not as common as in professional boxing meaning points are more important since it usually goes to a decision.
Usually the same applies to professional boxing also, I know Mike Tyson was 5'10 but there are a lot more lennox lewis and klitschkos than there ever were short guys.
That fight was amazing son! He's probably kicking himself that he tried to fight 170.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Baker (KSC)
I have a theory about this. Say if a guy trains to a 500lb squat and puts on 50lbs of muscle to weigh 250lbs. Then does full time MMA training and loses weight to 205lbs over a period of six months or so with only sporadic heavy weight training. Surely the muscle memory (or whatever Rip wrote about this in the book- I forget off the top of my head) Would come into play? Said fighter would still retain much of the strength he developed while also being in peak cardiovascular condition to fight for 25 minutes.
Right. But I'm thinking 225 instead of 205.
Yes one of the main things I took from the book... Strength is the more permanent adaptation. Important fact.
Just one more question - for a Heavyweight (206 - 265 lbs) who don't usually have to cut weight, would 15% BF be ok for optimal performance?
That's okay with me.
The problem is the completely outdated weight classes. In boxing everything over 200lbs is a heavyweight. That made sense in 1930 but doesn't make sense today. MMA could have fixed it but didn't (probably has something to do with them falling under the same commissions that control boxing and having to conform to their ideas of weight classes). You pretty much have no chance of being 6ft or less and fighting heavyweight irregardless of muscle mass because there is going to be someone else with a decent amount of muscle mass that is 4+ inches taller than you. A very few people can pull it off (Mike Tyson) but the odds just aren't in your favor.
Heavyweight should be 220lb or so and up, light heavyweight 200-220 lbs and work your way down from there. Light heavyweight would be a mix of taller/moderately built fighters and short built fighters. Heavyweight can be all the 6'3''+ 250+lbers.
The real problem with boxing is fighters have too much time to rehydrate. If it was same day weighins many fighters can't pull off the bullshit of fighting e.g 147lb and on fight night weighing in at 160lb. If they came in on the scale at 147lb at fight night they would effectively be a walking, talking zombie. After a couple of zombies, fighters would learn there lesson and move up to there natural weight class.
I agree with this. I'm only 5'5 and when I trained Muay Thai, the only weight class that made sense for me to be in was 135lbs. This really sucked because I feel more comfortable at a weight of 160-170lbs, but then I'd be fighting 6'0 guys with a reach that would destroy me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Floid
Meh, such is life I guess....
You want stupid-ass weight categories? Look at the ones for women in Olympic lifting.
The highest weight class starts at 165 lbs. So a woman at 185 either needs to drop over 20 lbs or compete against ones who weigh up to 100 more lbs.
The shitty part about this is that a 225 lb MMA fighter doesn't really have a home. He's 20lbs over LHW and The HW limit is 265. So the guy who might perform optimally at 225 is going to be outweighed by up to 40 lbs by some of his opponents. MMA would benefit greatly from a 230 lb weight class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe
A lot of people fighting in the light heavyweight division weighs around 105 kilos when not in camp, I know Ilir Latifi and Gustafsson does. I have a teammate who walks around at 75 kilos, diets down to around 68 and fights in 61 kilos so a lot of people cut massive amounts of weight. If there were a 230 pound division, the already thin heavyweight division would be cut in half and although that may be a good option later when there are more fighters, right now I think it would destroy the heavyweight division.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Baker (KSC)
Heavyweight does tend to be a bit of an exception though. So far it seems 240lbs has shown to be the biggest a fighter can be without cardio being a significant weakness. (This may change in the future i guess) Cain Velasquez is a chubby 230 and lost only once to a guy he destroyed twice afterwards!Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Baker (KSC)
Also too many weight classes could have negative effect on mass appeal. I think it would also make someone detrimentally bulk up when they wouldn't otherwise if they wanted to challenge the champ at the next weight class. Eg if brock lesnar couldn't make 265lbs we may all think he was too big & bad for the smaller heavyweights! Cain or the fans wouldn't have the opportunity to get that fight.
