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Hey Coach,
I’m in the middle of “Strong Enough” and you mention that chiropractors have a useful, legitimate place in the health care professions.
When do you find a chiropractor useful and how does one discern the difference between a good chiro and a quack?
I have trouble trusting these slippery sons-of-bitches. Especially when they start talking about removing “toxins.”
Chiropractors are useful for localized back pain with no radicular component. The quacks "remove toxins" while the good ones make your back feel better. It's sometimes a crapshoot, so references are useful.
Roger that - any idea what mechanisms are at play when they correct localized pain? Are we talking about a deep stretch on the soft tissue or actual realignment of facet joints, etc? I’m always skeptical when they talk about things being out of alignment.
I think that inflamed tissue is swollen and edematous, and that the manipulation disrupts the swelling and allows normal circulatory processes to resume. But really, I don't know.
Alright, thanks coach!
I think the major mechanisms at work is a reduction in mechanoreceptor input after the cavitation is produced, and through an analgesic response via downregulation of excitatory interneurons through descending input from the brain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soule
Maybe both, if the tissue prep before the manipulation was extensive enough.
WTF did I just read?Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Morris
Soule,
Where are you located?
I would start with a couple of guidelines in the search for a good chiropractor;
1. If they don't like dead lifting with proper form, then walk out immediately.
2. Find someone who deals with athletes.
3. Look for one with a sports diplomat.
4. Make sure they work on extremities, not just the spine.
For full disclosure I'm married to a chiropractor who sub specialized in body builders in the NYC area. (Note, she said SS has done more for my spinal health than anything else!) I recommend one that does extremities because in my experience going from a desk jockey to a much stronger desk jockey, I messed up my hands, wrists, and knees a few times and a good chiropractor can them them back quickly.
Let me know where you live and maybe I can help find you one.
Translation: things hurt less.Quote:
Originally Posted by 8odin8
Will, I resent the way you always oversimplify things and keep talking down to us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Morris
Austin. Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso Rojo
Can i achieve this same effect by smashing a back tweak with a massage gun? I bought one earlier this year and it seems to provide some relief on a back tweak that has been nagging me for 7 months or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Morris
The one chiro i visited had a similar tool that he used on a different injury. Then he put the suction cups on to “remove toxins” and i never went back.
When a chiropractor adjusts a joint, the characteristic “pop” is called a cavitation and is widely thought to be gas escaping from the joint. There are small receptors within joint capsules that measure stretch in the joint and these are a large reason why swollen joints hurt. If this gas escapes, the pressure inside the joint lessens, which may reduce the amount of sensory input these receptors send to the brain for processing.Quote:
Originally Posted by 8odin8
We have some functional MRI studies that show changes in the uptake of oxygen in the brain after joint manipulations. The pain center shows a decreased uptake of oxygen (meaning less activity) after this. We think this happens because the manipulation itself gives a stimulus to the brain to reduce the amount of sensory orders coming from the brain to increase pain. The brain can downregulate things called interneurons which modify the raw sensory signals to either make it a louder or a softer signal. We think the brain makes these interneurons that make the signal louder less active.
Dr. JFord, my apologies, sir. I did not mean to sound condescending. That truly was not my intent.
I thought the "pop" was from CO_2 being forced back into solution in the synovial fluid after diffusing out over time. Is that wrong?
That’s one of the theories, except they think it is primarily nitrogen. In my studies, the escaping gas theory is seemingly more prevalent. Either way, just some type of theoretical construct to illustrate a workable potential mechanism is probably sufficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewLewis
Soule,
I asked my wife and she doesn't know anyone in Austin, she's in Queens NY so that would be a nasty commute, hahaha.
I googled "sport chiropractor austin tx" and got some promising results.
Sports Medicine | Austin, TX | Spinal Rehab Sports Medicine(R)
Chiropractor Austin TX | Daniel P. Bockmann, DC | Austin Chiropractic Center
https://dynamicsportsmedicine.com/
These three look interesting. Remember, you want to know their opinion on dead lifting to improve spinal health and anything other than "yes when done properly" and you walk.
Um...I think I saw humor where none was meant. I'm the one that needs to apologize. My bad!Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Morris
John
Thank you sir, I appreciate ya!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso Rojo
Will, thanks for taking the time to draw it out for me to better understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Morris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soule
A good chiro will see you once, maybe twice, and you'll feel a little bit better and then you go on with your life.
A bad one will have you in twice a week for maintenance cracking for the rest of your life, or until your visits limit on your insurance.
If you have a regular appointment with a back crackin' guy, you're being played.
So you are saying that NFL football players are being played? I happen to know where a bunch of NY Giants guys are on Mondays. So your calling them out as being played.Quote:
Originally Posted by m_sporkboy
Now if you were commenting on the caliber of their play then that's a different conversation.
What do the NY Giants do for S&C? I can see them being played like $10 ukuleles.
Strength Coach Aaron Wellman takes you inside Giants' regimen
From what I've been told socially their S&C program is medieval at best and destructive at the most. Couple that with a mediocre O line and you have the Giants.
My point was more to point out that its equally dogmatic to say a regular appointment is foolish as to say once every three months is foolish. Each person has their own set of parameters that dictates their own needs. I can say for myself I need adjusting much less often now that Uncle Rip has me carrying a lot more back muscles.
I think the point was that regular chiropractic adjustment is a business model, not a therapy model.
Yes. I 100% stand by my statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso Rojo
Look, the studies on chiro adjustment are universally awful, showing no benefit at all. If you take x-rays before and after, nobody can tell which x-ray is which. And reported pain the day after doesn't improve, on average.
On the flip side, I *know* I've had 100% permanent relief of a multi-month pain episode after one treatment, so I kinda think there's probably something there, with an effect size too small for conventional studies.
This all adds up to me being both sure that adjustments can help, and also sure that they mostly don't, beyond placebo effect.
So if you're asking if some guys who get head injuries for a living and play with chronic pain can get played by an impressive guy in a white coat doing something dramatic, I have to respond with an emphatic yes.
If you want to rail against the man, fine. You aren't necessarily wrong in that there are many flawed studies with regards to the benefits, but it's more likely that the studies are flawed in their scope, methodology, and measurements. In the absence, there is sufficient empirical evidence to suggest it needs to be separated from its more dubious past and practices and considered for what it is: a viable, non-invasive alternative to orthopedic surgery with a well-defined theraputic range and effect. Sometimes, the effects of adjustment are transient, but usually because the conditions which caused the issue persist.Quote:
Originally Posted by m_sporkboy
Everyone conveniently forgets that modern doctors in western medicine used to be called barbers back in the day. It's foolish to cast aside potential solutions just because they used to be wrong, or even if they aren't entirely correct in the here and now.
They are amazing. And tes restoring tbe bodily efficiency helps facilitate removal of toxins. At least that's my story and i are sticking to it
Yes, toxins and poisons. They must be removed. By a chiropractor.
Chiropractors, weirdo Physical Therapists, holistic health practitioners, naturopaths, and “wellness coaches” function very well as an external, supplementary liver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe
You left out Reiki healers. I and other Eastern ooga-booga practitioners are deeply offended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Morris
It did seem a bit Been-y to this naïf.
I don’t know about toxins, but I’ve heard that those Reiki healers are good at removing certain bodily fluids, if you know what to ask for...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark E. Hurling
I sincerely apologize. I've never even heard of such practitioners. This just goes to prove I am uncultured, uneducated, and deeply disrespectful to natural healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark E. Hurling
