Coach Baker: Volume for Lifters Over 40

[Jonathon Sullivan]

Since the mantra of BBM is, above all, individual variation, you are in agreement.

Your mantra ear is perhaps differently tuned than mine.

The second quote contradicts the first quote, what use is your personal experience when there's a lot of individual variation?

I invite you to re-read and re-evaluate this part of your post at some length.

Also, this implies that your younger partner, Andy Baker, wouldn't have this clarity despite his extensive coaching history with the demographic in question.

The implication is yours, not mine. I made no implication at all. I was expressing (explicitly, not implicitly) that the older one gets, the more deeply one understands, appreciates, and empathizes with the experience of getting old. This experience, despite considerable individual variation, encompasses certain universal features. This cannot possibly be a point of serious contention, except of course among those who, in service to this or that agenda, actively aspire to be contentious.

[m_sporkboy]

I kinda feel like the BBM guys hit on an interesting formulation with their "training resistance" model, where post-novice trainees, females, and older trainees are more "training resistant". That may be a useful model.

The inference they draw is that these training resistant populations thus need more training (in the form of volume) to get the same effect.

But listening to Jordan, it sure feels like they missed the fact that a 50 year old female getting the "same effect" as a 20 year old male isn't a reasonable goal.

[jbackos]

I think you won't find either BBM, SS, or TBP recommending high intensity/high volume or med intensity (define medium?)/high volume programs. BBM wants to actively train up the capacity to do more volume... if you're able to sustain X volume, they're simply saying that long-term development requires you to progressively train your body to sustain more than X over time. The numbers involved depend on the individual, including what is medium or high intensity/volume.

I was simply making a general statement about my tolerance to volume to various training stressors. You're reading info that is not presented.

the common thread was that the volume was beating me up.

[Bbinck1]

I wonder if some of the Younger trainers message is that you can’t just do minimal volume and expect great or even good results at an older age. Part of the problem is that some of the post 40 population wants to do minimal intensity, minimal volume, not recover and then blame age. The more interesting issue in my humble opinion is that generally there is much more debate about programming with (generally) significantly less discussion about recovery. I mean how many people debate how much better a 50 yo does with 9 vs 8 vs 7 hours of sleep? Quantifying how much difference that makes is challenging but in reality may be 3x more important than 4x5 vs 3x5 sets on volume day, especially for an older trainee. And while there are certainly great coaches (like Baker) that have extensive experience with older trainees and get that, there is no doubt it is easier to identify that when you are older. It’s sort of like having kids. It is much easier to understand parenting issues if you have kids, but certainly not impossible if you don’t.

[Michael Wolf]

I wonder if some of the Younger trainers message is that you can’t just do minimal volume and expect great or even good results at an older age. Part of the problem is that some of the post 40 population wants to do minimal intensity, minimal volume, not recover and then blame age. The more interesting issue in my humble opinion is that generally there is much more debate about programming with (generally) significantly less discussion about recovery. I mean how many people debate how much better a 50 yo does with 9 vs 8 vs 7 hours of sleep? Quantifying how much difference that makes is challenging but in reality may be 3x more important than 4x5 vs 3x5 sets on volume day, especially for an older trainee. And while there are certainly great coaches (like Baker) that have extensive experience with older trainees and get that, there is no doubt it is easier to identify that when you are older. It’s sort of like having kids. It is much easier to understand parenting issues if you have kids, but certainly not impossible if you don’t.

You may be onto something here, but I'm a little skeptical at first read. This may be my mid-30s, inexperienced with being an oldster self talking, but I suspect even the geezers have experienced a horrible night of sleep followed by an unexpected great workout or PR. Hell man, I hit my first deadlift PR in 2.5 years exactly one a week ago - 675, too, not a "PR" on the third week of the LP - after waking up 4 hours earlier than usual to catch a flight to Chicago for a layover; then the next leg to Denver for about 6 hours total sitting on a plane between boarding, waiting, and taxiing; then a 30 minute uber ride, then straight to the workout. In other words: I was in abysmal acute recovery conditions, but still hit a relatively big PR as an already relatively more advanced lifter.

That only speaks to the sleep aspect, and also doesn't speak to the acute vs chronic aspect, but it's still somewhat telling about relative importance of things.

The other part of this is because we often have less control over some of those other aspects, whereas program planning is something we can control to a greater degree than most other recovery aspects.

[Thip]

This is an excellent thread ! As I had previously mentioned I am currently 64.5 ,and In the past 8 years I have used two well known strength coaches in addition to Jordan for on line training. The one thing that they all had in common was that none of them were in the over 45 demographic let alone over 50 or 60. It is important to understand what a masters athlete short comings are in terms of their training and recovery needs.

One size does not fit all . That is why the Barbell Prescription Plan text has been important. Believe me there is very little available about master's strength programming,conditioning and recovery needs. In addition to the on line training route I have tried 531, RPE, and 5x5. Andy Baker had the best offerings in his programming as they seemed to suit me with some modification. I have currently been running the 8/5/2 program with modification of the deadlift sets and reps and minimal assistance exercises. This is about 3-4 strength training days a week with some conditioning added in maybe twice or once a week which consist of 20-30 minutes of weighted sled dragging and the use of a 50ft manila rope with hand over hand pulling of the same weighted sled albeit lighter . I use a HR monitor and run in the 130-160 range depending upon how I feel.

Dr. Sullivan summed it up best when he mentioned that everyone is on their own individual time line. I keep trying to hit PR's, Although I have set modest goals I am trying to shoot for a 175-200# Press, over 300# Bp and an Over 400# Sq and over 450 Deadlift. These may not be obtainable, but what I am realistic about is what I have to do to improve my programming nutrition and recovery. At this age I try and not to grind a max rep because you never know how your body respond to the stress. The 18 yr old or 25 yr old, or hell the 45 yr old moment has to be tempered with some sage advice to yourself. If you break it you have bought it and you have a set back due to injury which may take awhile to recover.

A case in point was that used to like power cleans when I was younger. They made you feel more athletic ,and you were bulding explosive power. At 58 after 18 year layoff ( 1 hip replacement and knee surgery) I decided to try them again . I worked my way up to a 185 # clean,and that was it. I then realized that at my age I would not need that type of explosive power and I was fighting a decline

[LarryLohkamp]

Yeah....

You know, there is just something about actually having a 58 year-old body, with 58 year-old knees, that just clarifies a lot of things about life, the universe, and intermediate programming for Masters.

That gave me a chuckle, Doc. You will appreciate the aging process even more when you join those of us in their 8th decade.

The problem with sweeping statements that “older athletes need more volume to progress” is what is older and just how much is ‘more’. The OP probably thinks that they are ‘older’, but they really are just starting the downhill journey. The human body is an exquisitely complex collection of systems, each on its own path to entropy. What is more for me is not the same as more for my wife or especially my mom-in-law. And older? That covers a hell of a lot of ground.

As athletes of aging, we need to listen to how our bodies feel. If we are honest with ourselves, then we will know when we are over or under doing it. And if there is an error, it is better to be under trained than over. Recovering from over training is much harder on the body than taking a few weeks longer to add those pounds to the bar. As athletes of aging, we train to live. Getting to some arbitrary weight as fast as possible is seldom the goal. Quite frankly, I don't need more volume... new lungs, pancreas, kidneys...

[KangaJoo]

I was simply making a general statement about my tolerance to volume to various training stressors. You're reading info that is not presented.

the common thread was that the volume was beating me up.

I think they would say something like "You were probably doing that extra volume at the wrong intensity," although I think the lowest intensity they advocate is like 70% of 1 RM/RPE 7.

[Jonathon Sullivan]

I think they would say something like "You were probably doing that extra volume at the wrong intensity," although I think the lowest intensity they advocate is like 70% of 1 RM/RPE 7.

Or "you probably weren't divining your RPE correctly." Or "your form was probably bad." Or "you probably need to do more of that extra volume so you get used to it."

Or whatever.

Yes, we know. Of course, when the coach is actively looking at every rep, and prescribing load and volume for every workset, and tailoring every program to every individual post-novice athlete, the necessity of dealing in probabilities is substantially mitigated.