Volume sensitivity: 2 sets good. 3 sets bad. Your experience?

[Mike Troxell]

Randy, lots of good information in this thread. Thanks for asking the questions, and more importantly, following up. I weighed 180lb at 6'2" and ran marathons when I started, now I am 215 and lift substantially more. I know the struggles of a LSD body type. Couple of random thoughts I have not seen addressed that helped me throughout the program:

1) See a coach or post technique on the forum. You stated form was breaking down later in your work sets, maybe that is causing your soreness? Like you, I read the book and followed the program. I posted my lifts on the forum, received great "free" advice. But like anything in life, free is free, and I truly learned once I saw a coach. As a tall guy, not very strong, I struggled with lumbar flexion while seeking depth.

2) Buy good shoes and belt. You may have already, I learned the hard way.

3) Buy 1.25lb weights and take them to the gym with you. Sometimes, 5lbs just seems like a little too much.

4) My work keeps me on the road about 4-months a year, many of those in 3-7 day trips. Very early, I picked up the "have belt will travel" philosophy. Consistency is key for us over 40 guys and gals. If you're tired, get under a bar and work on technique.

Thanks again, hopefully these are somewhat helpful. Outside the programming realm of your questions, but items I found very important as I progressed.

[RandyG]

Randy, lots of good information in this thread. Thanks for asking the questions, and more importantly, following up. I weighed 180lb at 6'2" and ran marathons when I started, now I am 215 and lift substantially more. I know the struggles of a LSD body type. Couple of random thoughts I have not seen addressed that helped me throughout the program:

1) See a coach or post technique on the forum. You stated form was breaking down later in your work sets, maybe that is causing your soreness? Like you, I read the book and followed the program. I posted my lifts on the forum, received great "free" advice. But like anything in life, free is free, and I truly learned once I saw a coach. As a tall guy, not very strong, I struggled with lumbar flexion while seeking depth.

2) Buy good shoes and belt. You may have already, I learned the hard way.

3) Buy 1.25lb weights and take them to the gym with you. Sometimes, 5lbs just seems like a little too much.

4) My work keeps me on the road about 4-months a year, many of those in 3-7 day trips. Very early, I picked up the "have belt will travel" philosophy. Consistency is key for us over 40 guys and gals. If you're tired, get under a bar and work on technique.

Thanks again, hopefully these are somewhat helpful. Outside the programming realm of your questions, but items I found very important as I progressed.

Thank you for the nice words, but the credit goes to all those who have more experience and answered my relative newbie question.

As to your points:

1) I have hired coaches in the past. Some good, some terrible—I think Rip calls them pin-pushers. One of them tried to convince me to drop barbell training and start doing things like bear walks (!) and a bunch of other silly exercises which may have merit but I have no interest in. Another wanted me to go low-weight high reps (3 sets of 15 squats with 90sec rest, I am not kidding.) I've looked at the SS website in the past for an SSC in my area (Silicon Valley/San Jose CA) but there are none who are close enough to be practical. I did consider SSOC but I when it comes to physical movement/kinesthetics I NEED someone there to push, poke, and prod me real-time (like Rip does in many of his videos) until I have the movement correct. If you are an SSC coach (or even an SSC apprentics or advanced practitioner in the Silicon Valley area feel free to contact me. (Based on the website map, the closest coach is in Sacramento ... about 2hrs away—with no traffic.

2) I did buy both a belt (3") and specialized shoes.

3) I have also bought fractional plates: .25 .5 and 1lbs and use them. I should also note that I have invested in a quality rack and bumper plates so I have the luxury of being able to work out in my garage. (And the bonus that my son has, finally, gotten the bug and is also training.)

4) I like your have-belt-will-travel philosophy. Fortunately, I don't have to travel much for work, but there are weeks when fitting in a workout is hard. But I make it a priority and manage at least a couple of workouts a week.

Thanks again for the note and happy lifting.

Randy

PS I am not sure if it's kosher to ask for coaches or training partners on this forum. If so, please let me know and I'll edit my reply.

[flatcat]

I'm also going to throw this out there: as I said, I've taken it much more conservatively and have progressed farther than I thought I would. While I was home on R&R, I checked in with a couple of coaches who've done the SS seminars and they offered some tips on my technique. I had reached a point where I was feeling sore all the time and feeling like I was reaching the end of the line in terms of progress and felt I needed to change something up.

So after seeing these coaches and reading the Barbell Rx book and thinking about it, I'm no longer doing 2x a week. I am doing a HLM setup every week now - work sets are 5 sets of 5 instead of 3 sets of 5. It's now been about two months, and I have made quite a bit of progress. I've steadily added to all the lifts but particularly my weakest lifts (the presses) week after week. When I consulted the coaches back in the States, they told me I wasn't going low enough on the squat, so I ended up backing off to 245. I'm up to 5x5x270 now, about eight weeks later. Bench press has gone from 115 to 155. Deadlift has gone from 270 to 300.

And while I feel stiff and sore a little bit, for some reason, it is just not as bad as it was when I was lifting twice a week, it feels a lot more manageable. I am still sticking with the core lifts, and I am still sticking to staying with good form before proceeding. And I consider progress to be progress. If I can only get three off the floor on my first try at a new weight on the DL, I'll take it, because I know I'll get five next time, and it's still more on the bar even if it's less altogether. I'm OK starting with three sets of squats at the last weight plus five pounds, then the next week five sets. It doesn't matter to me. Progress is progress, more on the bar is more on the bar, and form is king.

(57 yo, about 240lbs, carried all on the belly, 5'11", never athletic)

[hondotbt]

Based on the website map, the closest coach is in Sacramento ... about 2hrs away—with no traffic.

While that's a bit of a haul, I think it's still worth it. Maybe make a day of it and go see an SS Coach and get all 4 lifts checked out. "Hiring a coach" versus seeing an SS Coach is a world of difference.

[Gregory Brown]

Dr. Sullivan has written some nuanced thoughts to the very general "volume sensitive master lifter" prescription. In addition there is a different line of thought regarding volume for any lifter,(excepting novices), including masters. But discussions of volume without the context of intensity and frequency and goals will be incomplete at best.

NLP ends for everybody. You are a skinny, older man with no previous history of strength training. Accept that your NLP endpoints might well be at significantly lower weights than what you "want".

You state that one goal is to weigh 185 lbs after starting at 152 all within a time frame of 8 or so months. Hmmm. Let's assume that total weight gain of 33 pounds is 70% LBM and 30% fat. So within 8 months you would gain about 23 pounds of LBM. Does that rate of lean body mass gain seem reasonable to you? Especially given you are thinking of cutting back on training frequency? Me neither. I would suggest cutting back on your daily caloric intake to a more reasonable total weight gain of perhaps 15 - 20 pounds over a year. By the way, I am a skinny, older man. I too would like to someday weigh 185, but that is a longer term goal and even at 170 lbs currently I can pull over 300 and squat close to that.

Last thought - if there is such a thing as training resistant individuals, and that more training is required for such individuals to overcome their relative lack of response to training stress, then perhaps decreasing training frequency is a poor programming strategy. Again, training stress is a combination of frequency, intensity, and volume. For me, intensity (the weight on the bar) is one of the largest factors in causing DOMs and by prioritizing volume and frequency I can over time increase strength without feeling beat up the next day after a training session.

Best of luck with your training! SS has been a live saver for me and my wife. We intend to train for many years to come. Hope you do too.

[RandyG]

Thank you for your comments/suggestions Gregory.

One clarification, somewhere either you or I missed 12 months from my stated goal of going from 152lbs to 185lbs bodyweight.

In other words, it's roughly 2-year plan (20 months, not 8). And and this point even that seems to be very aggressive because of injuries. It seems as if I get over one injury (e.g. piriformis, what a pain in the butt, literally), and I strain, sprain, pinch, tear, etc., something else.

The good news is that I, somehow, manage 3 steps forward for every step back, so there is progress.

For me, and for many others apparently, the biggest challenge by far is pacing myself and allowing plenty of time for recovery. I have to face the fact that the combination of my genetics and age mean slow, slow progress--and I've never been very good at the slow-and-steady thing.

Best of luck with your training! SS has been a live saver for me and my wife. We intend to train for many years to come. Hope you do too.

If you don't mind, I 'd love to hear more about the lifesaver story, especially since I am trying to get my wife to partake (right now she's yoga, yoga, yoga ... perhaps Rip could start a line of ladywear to compete with Lululemon since I suspect that she goes to yoga to justify her Lululemon purchases) :-).

Randy

BTW, I think many others would like to hear success/lifesaver stories like yours on this subforum.

[76now]

I think many others would like to hear success/lifesaver stories like yours on this subforum.

FUKYEAH!

[Gregory Brown]

Thank you for your comments/suggestions Gregory.

One clarification, somewhere either you or I missed 12 months from my stated goal of going from 152lbs to 185lbs bodyweight.

In other words, it's roughly 2-year plan (20 months, not 8). And and this point even that seems to be very aggressive because of injuries. It seems as if I get over one injury (e.g. piriformis, what a pain in the butt, literally), and I strain, sprain, pinch, tear, etc., something else.

snip ........

If you don't mind, I 'd love to hear more about the lifesaver story, especially since I am trying to get my wife to partake (right now she's yoga, yoga, yoga ... perhaps Rip could start a line of ladywear to compete with Lululemon since I suspect that she goes to yoga to justify her Lululemon purchases) :-).

Randy

BTW, I think many others would like to hear success/lifesaver stories like yours on this subforum.

Apologies for misreading that your body weight goal was two years in the future, not 8 months. What really got my attention though was your stated amount of eating - 3000-3500 calories/day. When I did something similar starting out I gained a lot of body fat and not much else. Recently I slowly decreased BW by about 12 pounds and still got stronger.

Our story is not dramatic. Age, career obligations, probably some laziness, starting catching up with us in our 50s and physically we starting to struggle with our bodies not being able to do the things we used to do easily. We would suffer back tweaks doing trivial things. Lipids started to climb for both of us. We felt weak, acted weak and were in fact getting weaker. We tried P90X one summer in a misguided attempt to "get into shape". That was a painful failure. Our youngest son was a ski racer and powerlifter in college. He encouraged us to look into SS and weight lifting. I got a cheap bar, squat stands and moved motorcycles around the garage and set up a small platform. I got the 3rd edition of the Starting Strength book and with the help of Rip's internet videos started the program - about 3 times. Each time it would end after about 4-5 weeks for various reasons. There is a SS coach in our town and one day I set up a private introductory lesson to go over the 4 main lifts. That really, really helped with correcting form problems and giving me the confidence that I could do this successfully. This was around Christmas time. My Christmas present to my wife that year was 6 months of weekly lessons at the SS gym. She was a little dubious at first but said OK. We both ended up working out there for 18 months. Now we have a real rack, good bars and enough plates in our garage and the knowledge to continue our workouts on our own. We are stronger, more athletic and more durable than anytime within the last 10 years. And our lipids improved dramatically without statins or crazy diets.

My wife in not into Lululemon, but has a similar obsession with Athleta clothing that caters to taller athletic women. They carry yoga wear in addition to other sportswear. Their models are generally more muscled and well, athletic looking instead of anemic and stick like. Perhaps you could talk to your wife about the possibility of strength training increasing her strength so she could do the more athletic advanced yoga poses? And I would not recommend that you teach your wife the lifts - get someone else to do that.

[granny]

FYI Marika Heather Charcoal Carrie Slimming 18 Capri Leggings - Women | Zulily Walmart has tagless hanes mens tank tops 4pack for $13.00. I mean, they're clothes you're using to sweat in (ymmv)

[AK49]

Let's assume that total weight gain of 33 pounds is 70% LBM and 30% fat. .

I would caution you on this assumption. My experience was about the reverse, 70% fat gain and 30% LBM. It may be as you said for the 20-30 year old crowd.