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Thread: Training twice a week, covering all 4 lifts

  1. #11
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    Thanks zft for clarifying - you make some good points. That being said, all of the Intermediate "split" programs that I saw in the gray book (SS:PP) do actually have squat + press (or squat + bench) workouts listed on the same day, and the squat is always listed first (the only exception I can think of is the "1 workout a day" split, which obviously has all lifts on separate days). This is why I'm thinking there must be a good reason for it.

    For technique-sensitive Olympic lifts (snatch, clean, jerk, etc.), I totally agree that the squat should be done AFTER these lifts, for the reasons you mentioned. But I don't think the OHP is nearly as technique-sensitive as the Olympic lifts; plus it doesn't involve as much lower body as the Olympic lifts (or the squat), which may be why it's okay to OHP after squatting.

    Either way, perhaps it's time for me to try pressing before squatting again, to see how I do!

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by skypig View Post
    For technique-sensitive Olympic lifts (snatch, clean, jerk, etc.), I totally agree that the squat should be done AFTER these lifts, for the reasons you mentioned. But I don't think the OHP is nearly as technique-sensitive as the Olympic lifts; plus it doesn't involve as much lower body as the Olympic lifts (or the squat), which may be why it's okay to OHP after squatting.
    Absolutely incorrect. Just because it's slower doesn't mean that it's less technique-sensitive.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Absolutely incorrect. Just because it's slower doesn't mean that it's less technique-sensitive.
    Thanks Mark for stepping in - sounds like I was on the wrong track. Thanks also to zft for pointing this out. With all this in mind, does this mean I should be pressing before squatting, if I'm in the (non-ideal) "2 lifts per training day" situation? I want to make sure I understand what to take away from this discussion (besides the fact that my time-limited program isn't optimal).

    Thanks again!

  4. #14
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    Does this mean that you think squats are less dependent on technique?

  5. #15
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    Thanks Mark - I think all the lifts depend heavily on technique, including the squat and OHP. The question at hand is which exercise order is most optimal for a 2-lifts-per-day training scenario.

    Page 73 of the gray book (PPST) says "Bench presses or presses are commonly done between squats and deadlifts, so that the best performance can be obtained from both of these lower-body exercises after some rest between them." The implication being squats 1st, presses 2nd, deadlifts 3rd.

    My question is: if this was cut down to a 2-lifts-per-day scenario that involved only the squat and press, would you squat 1st and press 2nd? Or press 1st and squat 2nd? I realize that A) both lifts depend on technique, and B) both lifts are important for building strength. That being said, which lift would you recommend be done first, in this non-ideal scenario, based on your experience? Put another way: which lift would be more negatively impacted by fatigue from the other lift?

    Thanks!

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by skypig View Post
    My question is: if this was cut down to a 2-lifts-per-day scenario that involved only the squat and press, would you squat 1st and press 2nd? Or press 1st and squat 2nd? I realize that A) both lifts depend on technique, and B) both lifts are important for building strength. That being said, which lift would you recommend be done first, in this non-ideal scenario, based on your experience? Put another way: which lift would be more negatively impacted by fatigue from the other lift?
    It's unfortunate the thread petered out on this question--I'm also very interested in an answer to this question (aside from my own). Does anyone else wish to weigh in?

  7. #17
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    It went unanswered because it is not a good question.

    Squat and press do not directly interfere with each other unless you're doing something wrong or something is broken. Note that squat is the first lift in program after program from SS. Obviously - OBVIOUSLY - if you/anyone else wants to try putting lifts in different orders as they progress, they can do so. Without a third lift to accommodate, you're not spacing out rest between SQ/DL or PR/BP or whatever.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by stef View Post
    It went unanswered because it is not a good question.
    I strongly disagree and think it's one of the better questions on this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by stef View Post
    Squat and press do not directly interfere with each other unless you're doing something wrong or something is broken.
    This has absolutely not been the case for me and even ignoring my anecdotal evidence, this makes no sense. You accumulate fatigue when doing the exercises and this fatigue absolutely has ramifications not only on later sets for that exercise but further exercises. There is substantial shared musculature
    in the squat and press, outside of the fact that both lead to systemic fatigue regardless.

    In fact, take it from the man himself. Here's a quote from the 3rd edition of PP, in the "The Split Routine Model" section of Chapter 7 (you're credited as a proof reader in this book, so your response really surprised me):

    Split routines also allow lifters to focus their efforts more on each individual lift. A very strong lifter doing 500+ lb squats for 5x5 probably doesn’t have much gas in the tank for anything else. Even his performance on upper body lifts would be greatly compromised were he to attempt to train them in the same session.

  9. #19
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    Since my response in PPST mentioned the numbers, and neither you nor skypig mention yours, how about you guys filling us in?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    Since my response in PPST mentioned the numbers, and neither you nor skypig mention yours, how about you guys filling us in?
    Here you go, most recent intensity 5s from the TM split (excluding the PC). My old training log on the forum corroborates these numbers.

    Squat - 222.5 kg x 5
    DL - 242 kg x 5
    Press - 86 kg x 5
    BP - 110 kg x 5
    PC - 126 kg x 3 x 5

    I'm 102 kg, 182 cm tall. So no, I'm not squatting 500+ lb 5x5s quite yet, but I'm pretty sure your advice is hardly binary and surely applies in a continuous fashion.

    And regardless of numbers, I think my argument remains sound (admittedly, in a decreasing fashion with decreasing weights/neuromuscular efficiency). I'm happy to be corrected if otherwise, but that is the understanding that I've gathered from reading PP and personal experience in the gym.

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