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Thread: Training twice a week, covering all 4 lifts

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by zft View Post
    Here you go, most recent intensity 5s from the TM split (excluding the PC). My old training log on the forum corroborates these numbers.

    Squat - 222.5 kg x 5
    DL - 242 kg x 5
    Press - 86 kg x 5
    BP - 110 kg x 5
    PC - 126 kg x 3 x 5

    I'm 102 kg, 182 cm tall. So no, I'm not squatting 500+ lb 5x5s quite yet, but I'm pretty sure your advice is hardly binary and surely applies in a continuous fashion.

    And regardless of numbers, I think my argument remains sound (admittedly, in a decreasing fashion with decreasing weights/neuromuscular efficiency). I'm happy to be corrected if otherwise, but that is the understanding that I've gathered from reading PP and personal experience in the gym.
    The reason we squat first on all the programs that are not Olympic weightlifting is that the squat warms up all the other lifts better than anything else. This was mention in both books. The more you're squatting, the more fatigue occurs from squats, but if you're training squats first, you accommodate to the pattern over time. The fatigue is general and systemic, and nothing from the squat directly interferes with the press. And even if it did, you adapt.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by zft View Post
    This has absolutely not been the case for me and even ignoring my anecdotal evidence, this makes no sense. You accumulate fatigue when doing the exercises and this fatigue absolutely has ramifications not only on later sets for that exercise but further exercises. There is substantial shared musculature
    in the squat and press, outside of the fact that both lead to systemic fatigue regardless.
    Have you considered that your squat is strong and your press is weak? My 5RM squat is 100 lbs less than yours, but my 5RM bench is 50lbs higher. If I try to squat after benching or pressing, my upper body becomes too stiff to position the bar properly, unless I do a long warmup in the middle of the workout.

    SS posits that, due to the stretch reflex, the squat escapes the usual tradeoffs of stress/fatigue, and achieves Pareto optimality in most circumstances.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe View Post
    The reason we squat first on all the programs that are not Olympic weightlifting is that the squat warms up all the other lifts better than anything else. This was mention in both books. The more you're squatting, the more fatigue occurs from squats, but if you're training squats first, you accommodate to the pattern over time. The fatigue is general and systemic, and nothing from the squat directly interferes with the press. And even if it did, you adapt.
    You adapt--up to a limit. I imagine the net effect of the degree of this adaptation coupled with the amount of stress you're (capable of) applying is the decider in whether or not it makes more or less sense for a person to press after they squat. (Hence the example of the strong guy in the quote from PPST.)

    Thank you for your response.

  4. #24
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    I started doing an 8/5/2 program several weeks ago. It has me squatting and pressing on Mondays and Fridays. I always alternate both as I warm up, then start doing my press worksets as I continue loading my squats. Depending on how heavy the squat worksets are, I often superset the worksets for both. The exception is when I'm doing heavy doubles on the squat, I usually do two sets of presses before I get to my top squat sets, then just leave the bar loaded for squats and do the other three press sets after I'm done. I'm still plenty warmed up to press after squatting.

  5. #25
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    Thanks zft for reviving this thread - I really appreciate it! Based on what's been said so far, I think it's fair to say that squatting 5x5 does produce "overall" fatigue that could potentially interfere with subsequent lifts...although perhaps some people can adapt to this fatigue, as Mark said.

    Also, today I tried what you suggested: I did my 5RM (Intensity) OHP workout before my 5x5 (Volume) squats...and I was able to do 149 lbs for 1x5 on the OHP! I was really happy, because I had failed this same 5RM OHP set a couple weeks ago, when I did it after my 5x5 squats (only managed 3 reps that time)! So it seems there's something to what you said - at least in my case, it looks like the general/systemic fatigue from my squats was interfering, to a measurable degree, with my OHP lift. So from now on, I'll be taking your advice and doing the Intensity OHP first, and saving Volume squats for the end.

    zft, I'm curious: what would you advise if the 2 lifts for the day were 5x5 (Volume) Bench and 1x5 (Intensity) Deadlift? I don't think 5x5 Bench causes the same level of general/systemic fatigue as the squat, so Bench could be potentially done first, saving the DL for last (which is what I do now)....but maybe there's a case to be made for doing DL first, if you think that Bench fatigue might detract from your ability to pull heavy. What has been your experience?

    Thanks again everyone!

  6. #26
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    I always go squat, push, pull in that order. If I am omitting one of the 3 movements, I still follow that order. It's worked well.

    I don't think your press will progress differently if you do it before the squat. As long as you're eating enough carbs, your body will probably adapt to pressing after the squat and progress at the same rate as if you did it beforehand.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiva Kaul View Post
    Have you considered that your squat is strong and your press is weak?
    Yeah, of course. On the press side--almost everyone's press is weak. I'm sure that Chase Lindley's press programming looks a lot different than what most other people do. The stress he can apply with the press far exceeds the stress that I can apply. My squat being (somewhat) strong is probably of greater relevance here: after I do heavy squats, there isn't much left in the tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiva Kaul View Post
    SS posits that, due to the stretch reflex, the squat escapes the usual tradeoffs of stress/fatigue, and achieves Pareto optimality in most circumstances.
    I remember reading this in PPST, but I'm not convinced by it and I'd like a more detailed explanation. (If you replaced your squats with pause squats, would you be destroyed for the rest of the workout? Pause squats are inherently lighter than normal squats and this complicates the answer to the question.)

    Quote Originally Posted by skypig View Post
    Also, today I tried what you suggested: I did my 5RM (Intensity) OHP workout before my 5x5 (Volume) squats...and I was able to do 149 lbs for 1x5 on the OHP! I was really happy, because I had failed this same 5RM OHP set a couple weeks ago, when I did it after my 5x5 squats (only managed 3 reps that time)! So it seems there's something to what you said - at least in my case, it looks like the general/systemic fatigue from my squats was interfering, to a measurable degree, with my OHP lift. So from now on, I'll be taking your advice and doing the Intensity OHP first, and saving Volume squats for the end.
    This seems far from conclusive. You might've made the OHP if you hadn't switched the order too. But I still definitely think a 1x5 OHP should almost universally appear before a 5x5 squat set if you're not also deadlifting that day.

    Quote Originally Posted by skypig View Post
    zft, I'm curious: what would you advise if the 2 lifts for the day were 5x5 (Volume) Bench and 1x5 (Intensity) Deadlift? I don't think 5x5 Bench causes the same level of general/systemic fatigue as the squat, so Bench could be potentially done first, saving the DL for last (which is what I do now)....but maybe there's a case to be made for doing DL first, if you think that Bench fatigue might detract from your ability to pull heavy. What has been your experience?
    I'm hardly the authority here, but in my personal experience I would bench first. But my bench is dogshit (as Shiva so astutely noted) and needs all the help it can get. Also, the stress I can apply with a 5x5 bench (and the resulting fatigue) is basically nada compared to what I can do with a deadlift 5RM.

    A curious and related thing is that one of the TM split variations in PPST looks like this:

    Day 4
    Intensity Deadlift 1 x 5
    Volume Squat 5 x 5

    How to order these two seems the least obvious to me. I've tried both ways and in each the second lift suffers as a result of the first.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by zft View Post

    A curious and related thing is that one of the TM split variations in PPST looks like this:

    Day 4
    Intensity Deadlift 1 x 5
    Volume Squat 5 x 5

    How to order these two seems the least obvious to me. I've tried both ways and in each the second lift suffers as a result of the first.
    Yeah, this is a tough one. When I started back on a 4-day TM split last spring, I was deadlifting first and then doing my 5x5 squats. That started to suck, so I tried squatting first and then pulling, which sucked worse. It wasn't too long after that that I just moved my deadlift to my intensity squat day (squatting first). That seemed to work a lot better and I did that for several months.

    OP, as far as bench and deadlift, I'd bench first, but that's just me. You know, with regard to all these questions, you can try it both ways and see what works for you. Adjust down the road as needed.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by zft View Post
    I remember reading this in PPST, but I'm not convinced by it and I'd like a more detailed explanation. (If you replaced your squats with pause squats, would you be destroyed for the rest of the workout? Pause squats are inherently lighter than normal squats and this complicates the answer to the question.)
    You'd have to ask Rip. My suspicion is that the stretch reflex causes less central fatigue because it is controlled by local mechanisms, not central ones.

    But I still definitely think a 1x5 OHP should almost universally appear before a 5x5 squat set if you're not also deadlifting that day.
    I agree - but shouldn't intensity anything precede volume anything?

  10. #30
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    I look at it this way. If I miss going up weight in my squat workout I am depressed until the next one, if I miss my press I am mildly annoyed.

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