Deadlift not progressing because lower back keeps on rounded and squats catching up!

[Amos famous]

Dear Coach Rip.

I've already done the lowerback activation drills, really followed the 5 steps of the deadlift, shoved my knees out hard during the deadlift, and even focusing on lifting my chest up hard but still, my lowerback keeps on rounding! My starting weight on the deadlift was 95kg. Was perfectly fine. But, as the weight went up, the lowerback rounding becomes more prominent. The rounding got worse and worse, had to drop it to a weight where my form looks better but still, as it progress, the rounding keeps coming back. I added PC on week 3 to let my body recover from the deadlift, hoping the rounding will be gone, but still... URGHHHHH!!!!! Been searching all over the web and forums about this (a cue problem, lower back not tight enough, not lifting the chest up enough, you screaming at me might help, inflexible hamstrings, inability to control my erector muscles, shoving knees out so that groin muscles also can contribute to maintaining back angle, etc.). None of those helped.

My squats clearly has caught up, (now currently at 97.5kg for 3x5, started at 75kg for 3x5).

I'm 19 years old. 5 feet 8.5 inches. Eating 4000kcal a day and have gained 15lbs total in bodyweight in 3 full weeks (148lbs to 163lbs). Squats, bench and press progressing really nicely but what frustrates me the most in my deadlift.

I was going to post this on the SS Coach forum but I've already posted another one recently this week (have to wait another week in order to post another one or else I'll end up violating the sticky). I really want to get this problem rectified immediately ASAP so that I can progress smoothly on my deadlift. One of the deadlift post I sent for a form check was this; http://startingstrength.com/resource...orm-check.html, that time, I also had this issue. According to Coach Micheal Wolf, he said it was a recovery issue and recommend me to reduce the frequency and adding PC into the mix and progress slowly with small increments. Still suffered the same problem.

Here is a video of me deadlifting 100kg for 5 today (This isn't the worse of the lowerback rounding yet...)


My squats has clearly caught up with my deadlift. In case you were to accuse me of having partial squats, here's a video of me squatting on the previous session... Failed to get 100kg because I under-slept and only had time to train early in the morning right after I woke up because it was going to be a really busy day ahead of me. But I swear, I'll get there.


If you doubt me doing the PC in the program and substituting with rows, here's a video of me doing PC with a newbie weight of 45kg (I'm not proud, nor impressed with the light weight I'm currently at on the PC, so don't assume I'm bragging)


Coach Rip, please help me fix this issue so that I can sleep well tonight, knowing I no longer have to be narcissistic over my deadlift form.

[Mark Rippetoe]

You started your deadlift at 95k 3 weeks ago, and 100 looks like this? Despite the fact that only the last rep is what would be called "bad", this math doesn't work with the program.

[Amos famous]

This was week 2 Day 1. Lower back was rounded awfully from the 3rd rep onwards.


On week 2 day 2, I drop the weight to 95kg for 5 and tried out lifting the chest up even harder. During that time, I also posted a form check on the SS Coach board. http://http://startingstrength.com/r...orm-check.html. Coach Micheal pointed out that I was over-extending my back during the set-up, causing me to then lose that back position as I break the bar off the floor. Instead of over extending my spine, he advised me to continue to squeeze my chest up before each rep but balance it out by also squeezing/bracing my abs really hard.

On Week 3 Day 1, I did 102.5kg for 5 reps (was shirtless because the background was too bright for my white shirt. Had to take off my shirt so that I can observe my lowerback properly). This video only shows 4 reps though, the video was cut off suddenly on the 5th rep. The rounding was obvious on the 4th rep. The 5th rep might be worst.


I did PC on week 3 day 2.

The next day, week 3 day 3.The rounding was even worst of them all...


The video on my previous post is where I am now.

I did not start at a weight to high, I manage to complete 95kg for 5 reps on the first day with pretty good bar speed and good form. I thought obviously the problem was due to lack of recovery, especially when 5kg can already cause much changes in form on my lower back. But after adding PC and reducing the deadlift frequency, the problem still shows up.

Each time I increase the weight a little, my lower back rounding slowly catches up as well. Although if I go back to my starting weight, or a bit higher than starting weight, it'll look way better than the last time I did them. This example was clearly shown on week 4 day 1 () where I did rather decently except for the last rep.

I think I'm clearly overthinking this as I'm still a novice and clearly should not be worrying on all kinds of these stuff. I envy those people who can lift damn heavy but still with a straight lower back. When I ask people to observe my form, they say it looks good except; e.g. rep 3-5 or rep 5 where my damn lower back is rounding. When I hear this, I get pissed off. I want to deadlift heavy but my lower back keeps on rounding. I know I can deadlift heavier, the weight is manageable, but each time I grind just a little, BAM! The rounding occurs.

I want to get this problem over with. Hopefully this problem subsides as I get stronger. Will deadlift tomorrow and tell you how it goes...

[Satch12879]

But you haven't missed reps, so what's the problem?

[deeprooted]

Push your knees slightly(!) more forward and drop your hips slightly(!). As far as I can tell you're a bit out of balance, your shoulder blades are a bit in front of the bar and you got no initial push from your quads at all (because they're a bit too extended) and with all that slight inefficiency you also give your back even more work to do by being unnecessarily horizontal. Most people start deadlifting with their knees too forward and their hips too low. You're a bit on the opposite end I guess. While they wouldn't get the bar off the floor at all, you'll end up bending your back.

Look at the last video in your last post for example. You raise your chest just as you should and get a little bit lower with your hips. That's good. But before you reach your ideal starting position you start lifting. In that moment get your butt a little bit lower, your knees a litte bit more forward and think about pushing your feet into the floor instead of lifting the bar up.

[marcf]

But you haven't missed reps, so what's the problem?

Yeah, exactly. Don't worry until you're actually missing reps or your last rep is an all out 100% I'm-starting-to-see-God grinder.

Your form doesn't look terrible, so you should keep going. And don't worry about where your squat and deadlift ratios are right now. I mean, in 3-4 months they'll sort themselves out if you keep gaining weight like you have.

[Dag]

It looks to me like your lower back starts to round before the weights even clear the floor, which may indicate you're not set up quite right or that you're not taking the slack up. Be sure you're really pulling your chest up before you start the pull. You should be almost uncomfortably tight. That's about all I can offer, sorry.

[Samuelsson]

Yeah, exactly. Don't worry until you're actually missing reps or your last rep is an all out 100% I'm-starting-to-see-God grinder.

Your form doesn't look terrible, so you should keep going. And don't worry about where your squat and deadlift ratios are right now. I mean, in 3-4 months they'll sort themselves out if you keep gaining weight like you have.

I’m curious about this advice...

In one way I would agree, if you don’t miss reps, increase the weight next time and continue… during LP each weekly deadlift session can be a like a new 5x PR, and form is allowed to be a little off at PR level/attempts?

But on the other hand I also read somewhere on this forum, specifically about lower back rounding during deadlifts, that when the back rounds excessively (that’s up for interpretation I guess), it means the erectors didn’t do their part of the job, or weren’t strong enough to do their job, which is keeping the lower back from rounding.
In other words the amount of stress applied to them was greater than the amount of stress they can tolerate and therefore they haven’t been exposed to the right amount of stress through the range of motion in correct anatomical position to induce the repair/strengthening for next week’s work out...?

Or it was something like that anyway…

Any ideas on that?

[MarinePMI]

IMO, it's because eventually you will stall with bad form. Also, all the major lifts (in some way) include muscle groups from other lifts. Whether it be pushing or pulling, because these are compound movements, eventually something lacking in one lift, will hinder another (and vice versa).

So, when he suggests "keep deadlifting until you start missing reps" and to "not worry about the differences between your squat and Deadlift right now", I would think he is saying just to continue until you start missing reps, because the assumption is that he is also squatting (which also strengthens the back) and everything will naturally start to sort itself out. i.e. the weakest part of your body in a compound lift is going to get hammered the most...making it stronger over time.

Personally, my DL stalled until my squats progressed enough to squat quasi heavy. At that point I noticed in my logs that my DL began to increase again.

Just a guess on my part, but I think this is one of the reasons people harp on DTFP; every single lift relies on the other lifts to strengthen muscles that support progressing in that single lift.

Squat supports quad and erector spinae development (and some abdominal development); these support a better base when OHP'ing.

DL supports lower/upper back, abdominal development and hamstring/quad development, this development enables better OHP base and lock out. It also supports the eccentric part of the squat (hamstrings) as well as keeping the spine in a neutral position when LBBS.

BP supports pec as well as deltoid (and lats to some degree) development, which enables better OHP

OHP basically uses everything (though a majority of it is isometric).

This is just my theory here (so an SSC can step in here and tell me I'm wrong; it won't be the first time), but because the OHP involves all the major major parts of the kinetic chain, it is often said "the OHP is the truest display of strength". But to get there, you have to work the hell of the sub-assembled kinetic chains used in each of the other lifts. While DL remains the heaviest lift (typically) a person can do, the OHP demonstrates (IMHO) that you have a well rounded out base of strength, even though it is typically the lightest lift a person can do.

Any ways, that long drawn out schpeel is just to emphasize what I think the other poster was saying, in that you should keep pushing your lifts regardless of what your other lifts are, because eventually anatomy and the physics of the movements will even everything out.

JMTCW...

[Samuelsson]

JMTCW,

That's an insightful answer, and interesting take on the OHP being the 'truest display of strength' as well. It's ceratinly the most challenging lift imo both technique- and strengthwise.