Integrating the 20 rep squat

[Kregna]

I'll add that 20 reppers with a LBBS is hell as the lower back stress really starts to build on the last 5-10 reps. I did 20 reps with just 135# earlier this week as I can't squat Heavy right now and the last 5 reps were harder than I'd like to admit. I believe I'd ramp up to starting a cycle rather than going balls deep. What length density block are we talking here for front squats?

All this being said, a completed 20 rep cycle, be it 6 weeks or 12, shows character.

I remember my upper back and rear delts getting tired keeping the shelf for the bar. Something I didn't expect

[TommyGun]

A few years ago I ran a 20 rep squat progression. Stopped at at 225 lbs because that was my goal. Wish I continued. 20 rep squats are much more difficult than I thought. At your limit your legs are (no exaggeration) oscillating wildly. It becomes much more mental. And unless you are conditioned for it, it is very taxing. The breathing part is tough, just impossible to get enough O2.


Not sure how much benefit is derived from it however.

[Alexander Dargatz]

This is ambitious. If you do the 20 reppers correctly, you won't be able to *think* of deadlifts, much less pull a maximum of any kind.

Personally, I would drop snatch grip deads, power cleans, and front squats. If you feel the need to squat twice per week, I'd reduce the Friday squats to maybe a set of 10, and do some light deads after (maybe a set of 10-12?). Your low back and hips will get plenty of work from the squats. A 20 rep program multiple times per week is only to last a few weeks, maybe 6 weeks. You can omit deads for a short period and still be okay.

Lastly - if you do your program as written (or even if you cut it down), the only things you should do outside the gym are eat & sleep. As much of both as possible.

I agree with Chebass. Seems like he has done it before

I'd also recommend to do the 20RM set once a week only, and no DL or backoff squat sets on that day.
I felt it helps to have the last warm-up single at a higher weight than your work set.
You could probably do another light squat day, and either a medium day or a heavy front squat day. I wouldn't do sets of 10, just 5s. 20 reps once per week is plenty. After this one set you should be half dead for minutes. You wouldn't start at 50% of 1RM, more like 60%, some say your estimated 10RM. If you're not wondering whether you put on too much weight and if you can do it, it's probably too light.

I remember how exhilarating I felt after completing the set I have dreaded the whole week - for maybe 3 minutes, then the realization set in, that I'd have to do it again next week, only with more weight! It's (a) mental training for sure. Everyone should do it once, for the experience. Afterwards, most programs seem easy.

[Chebass88]

Regarding starting weight - my recommendation would be to start conservatively. Set it up so you are hitting new PRs (if you know your 20RM) in the 3rd week or so, with the first two weeks being relatively "easy" to accomplish.

One of the hardest parts of doing a difficult set of 20 is the mental aspect. You'll hit something like 12-14 reps, and begin thinking that you cannot do another rep. Your arms will be asleep / numb, your lower back will feel like it is on fire, and you will think you can't breathe. Once doubt enters in, the set is done. I've usually done these at home, by myself, which makes it much more difficult. When I've done a set of 20 in a gym with someone else counting, it is easier. If you have a training partner, ask them to help you with encouragement during the set. Decide ahead of time that you WILL get all 20 reps.

My other recommendation is to move around after you're done the set, even just walking back and forth, begin unloading the plates, etc. It helps to regulate your breathing.

[TommyGun]

Always have someone with you counting your reps. In the grind you will lose track and will be unsure. It's a lousy feeling when you are not sure.

As far as the net benefit, I don't think it helped overall. I could not really DL on the days I squatted, I was just toast. So it's a real tradeoff because your other lifts may plateau.

And it really is a sense of impending doom knowing that you you have to bang out a set of 20. Not fun. Huge mental commitment.
The only thing that helped me is knowing that 2 to 3 minutes of hell and it will be over.

[Meshuggah]

For me, 20 rep squats took more than they gave.

[El Rojo]

Appreciate everyone who was chimed in with their experiences and suggestions.

Doing an "LP" with 20 rep sets is a conditioning LP. At that rep range, I think you're getting quite close to a catabolic state.

No offense but you are clearly unaware of the specifics of the routine. Saying It’s only cardio or leads to catabolism reminds me of those who claim 5x5 is just for strength and won’t add a single ounce of muscle to your frame.

Why don't you do deadlifts on the wednesday instead of squats?

You are right on the Wednesday deadlifts sir. Thanks for sharing your experience with the program.

Especially the 6 week part. If you are hitting those 20 rep squats as hard as Rader, Eells, Hise, McCallum, etc. advocated the original program will be plenty and you will not want to do more than 6 weeks of it. Let alone 12 weeks.

Well, if I can’t milk the 20s anymore I’ll go to 15s, then 12s, 10s, 8s, etc. A good old school linear program like the ones you americans used to write before the soviets came and infected your minds with those weird ideas of undulating periodization.

I'd also recommend to do the 20RM set once a week only, and no DL or backoff squat sets on that day.
I felt it helps to have the last warm-up single at a higher weight than your work set.
You could probably do another light squat day, and either a medium day or a heavy front squat day. I wouldn't do sets of 10, just 5s. 20 reps once per week is plenty. After this one set you should be half dead for minutes. You wouldn't start at 50% of 1RM, more like 60%, some say your estimated 10RM. If you're not wondering whether you put on too much weight and if you can do it, it's probably too light.

Interesting thoughts, the overwarmup seems like a really good idea. What would you suggest as a “light” SQ in the context of this program?

Regarding your precaution on the starting weight not being too light, my plan was to do as Chebass88 recommended and work up to the really hard sets only after a few weeks. Why would you advise against it?

[Alexander Dargatz]

Interesting thoughts, the overwarmup seems like a really good idea. What would you suggest as a “light” SQ in the context of this program?

Regarding your precaution on the starting weight not being too light, my plan was to do as Chebass88 recommended and work up to the really hard sets only after a few weeks. Why would you advise against it?

For light day, maybe 2x5 at the same weight as for the 20s. Maybe 2x3 or 3x3 at a slightly heavier weight would be better for conserving strength.

But I have to say I only squatted once per week, and I wasn't doing SS or strength training at all at that time, more like bodybuilding sillyness, it's been a few years.

No, I agree that the first two weeks shouldn't be all out maximum do or die, you need A LITTLE room to progress. BUT if you increase 5lbs/week, and you start on a comfortable weight, it will take some time until you really start pushing yourself. I think the first time it should be quite hard already.
And as I said, I think the challenge (and the benefit) are mainly the mental aspect of it. For strength, I suppose what Meshugga and others said has to be considered - you won't be able to effectively squat and pull heavy while you're doing the 20 rep sets.

[Chebass88]

Another way of determining the starting weight would be to simply pick a weight and do as many reps as possible in a single set. If you get more than 25+ reps easily, increase the weight by ~10-15lbs. If you get 20-25 reps, increase by 5-10lb. If you struggle to get 20 reps, no more than 5lb increase. If you cannot get 20, stay at that weight until you can.

As a reference, with a 1RM of 475, I was able to get 315x20 (belt only, LBBS). This was after a few weeks of doing higher rep sets at 315 (~12 reps or so) for fun after my working sets.

When I did my first attempt at 20 reppers, I had a 1RM of 355 (raw, no belt/wraps), and I struggled with 185x20 (also raw). I was able to get up to ~225x20 (belted & wrapped). At that time, I didn't wrap powerlifting-tight, but more wrapped around the knee like some WWI puttees.

Regarding form degradation - it happens. Reps 15-20 in a heavy set of 20 are not perfect. An overly conservative method of progression would be to increase the weight IF all reps were met AND each rep was perfect (depth, minimal knee caving, no rounded back, etc.).

[gtl]

I think if you start somewhere around 60-65%, you'll be fine.. provided you have some base level of conditioning. If a set of 5 makes you suck wind, then you might be closer to 55%.

Try it, then decide if you add 5lbs or 10lbs next time.