Bit of a Twist on the Usual Questions

[Bojangles]

Background: I bought SS back in 2011 and read it cover to cover a few times, followed it exactly as it was prescribed and made some nice progress. Body weight went from 185 to 215, Bench got to 190 3 x 5, Squat to 285 3 x 5, Deadlift to 365 x 5 and Press to 140 3 x 5. Eventually, work responsibilities, school and life got in the way, and I neglected my training before I truly stalled out on any of the lifts. A few years of sporadic training and a less than stellar diet left me with the desire to get strong again and get healthy. My lower body grew quite well from the squats and deadlifts and I was pushing a size 38 waist, even though my upper body did not respond great size-wise. I have had a much larger lower body than upper body ever since and was not happy with the bottom-heavy look that I had. I promised myself that when I started training again, since I simply enjoy strength training and did not compete or require a heavy squat or deadlift for any particular reason, that I would try to put more emphasis on upper body strength and size.

Fast forward to today: For the past year, I have been running a program I designed myself which alternates between 3x5, 3x3, 3-5rm and Reverse Pyramid Training for the Bench and Press when one set/rep scheme would stall, followed by bodybuilding assistance work for upper body two days per week...and that's it. I only trained twice a week for the past year and only upper body (I know that this is considered a sin here, but please understand that it was not my goal at the time to follow SS). No lower body anything aside from a few sled training sessions here and there. My only focus at the time was to look good and get as big and strong in the bench and ohp as possible while gaining upper-body size. I am 24 now, 6'1.5'' and 232lbs. My close-grip bench just stalled at 250 x 2, overhead press at 180 x 1, weighted Olympic-ring chins at 45lbs for 5x5, DB Row 110lbs x 5, and DB floor press the 100lbs x 8. I have gained a bit of fat but still have a slightly visible abs when flexed. For the past 3 weeks, I have been feeling beat up from constantly increasing my lifts and accessory work and have stalled in my bench and press the past three weeks in a row as well despite micro-loading and resetting a few times. I feel like it is finally time to do an actual tried and tested program and stop messing around, and so I came here to ask for your advice. I feel as though my numbers for the cg-bench and press are beyond what would still work for SS model, however I have not done any squats or deadlifts in a long time. Being that my upper body looks more like how I want it to, even though my lower body is still rather large (38-inch waist, no chicken legs genetics), I would like to try and work in squats and deadlifts slowly back into my training. Over at EliteFTS somebody recommended 5/3/1, but I have read that many people do not feel that it works well for bench and press and some even saw them go down. I was also told that the guys over at the SS forum may be more knowledgeable about an intermediate program that would allow me to progress a little faster than once per month.

[autumnal]

SS Linear Progression isn't done when a certain amount of weight is lifted. It's done when the lifter can no longer add weight each workout.

Since it's been so long for squats and deads, you'll progress fast enough to use LP for a while. You can use an intermediate program if your presses are truly done with LP, with just those exercises. Since progress is rarely linear across the major lifts, combining SS and an intermediate like TM or HLM may be in order.

[Dalton Clark]

You will be hard pressed to find a Starting Strength lifter who will not make squats and deadlifts a major part of the program. Many people who re-introduce squats and deadlifts into their routines notice that it improves their upper body performance. I can't say whether this is due to systemic level of growth factors or what since I am not a doctor. If you have not performed the squat and deadlift for a year, you might as well consider yourself a rank novice in those lifts and follow the protocol described in the book to determine your starting weight and program. Since you have some experience, you will be able to make progress faster than a true novice would.

At your current press, I would try to microload it doing 3x3. Same for bench. If you find that even this is not possible, then you will have to look at intermediate programming for your press and bench. But definitely try LP before going to that and by no means assume that you aren't a novice.

[Alexander Rix]

At your weight and weight you can definitely run an LP for squat and deadlift. Get to 4 plates!

You can can an LP on your lower body and do an intermediate program for your upper body if you want.

[Bojangles]

I totally agree with you guys, and I want to get back to slowly working my deadlifts and squats into my training, but would like to do it at a slower pace. Right now, my goals are more to hit a 300 bench and 200 press. Would something like wendler's 5/3/1 for my bench and press with a lower day thrown in in a more LP way be a decent alteration. Something like:

Monday:
Bench: 5/3/1
DB Shoulder Press: 3 x 8-10
DB Rows: 5 x 8
Facepulls and Abs

Wednesday:
Deadlift: 1 x 5
Squat: 2 x 8
Back Extensions
Prowler Pushes

Friday:
Press: 5/3/1
DB Floor Press: 3 x 8-10
Chins: 5 x 5
Facepulls and Abs

[Dalton Clark]

There is very little reason to do it at a slower pace. In my opinion, this is kind of a strange situation in which you are asking advice from the Starting Strength community who are all going to say that you should be improving your squat and deadlift since they have been entirely neglected for too long. In addition, there isn't a reason for you not to do 3x5 on squat since your weights used initially will not be heavy enough to warrant any rep scheme other than that described in Starting Strength. Your best bet, if you are insisting on not testing to see if you are beyond novice levels on the bench and press, would be to do the upper body HLM or 4 day split described in Practical Programming. Quite a few people on here will tell you that your suggested exercises are not going to help you towards your goal. Notable the DB shoulder press, DB rows, facepulls, or DB floor press. Basically you are asking the Starting Strength community for advice on things that we wouldn't program for someone in your shoes.

[Bojangles]

There is very little reason to do it at a slower pace. In my opinion, this is kind of a strange situation in which you are asking advice from the Starting Strength community who are all going to say that you should be improving your squat and deadlift since they have been entirely neglected for too long. In addition, there isn't a reason for you not to do 3x5 on squat since your weights used initially will not be heavy enough to warrant any rep scheme other than that described in Starting Strength. Your best bet, if you are insisting on not testing to see if you are beyond novice levels on the bench and press, would be to do the upper body HLM or 4 day split described in Practical Programming. Quite a few people on here will tell you that your suggested exercises are not going to help you towards your goal. Notable the DB shoulder press, DB rows, facepulls, or DB floor press. Basically you are asking the Starting Strength community for advice on things that we wouldn't program for someone in your shoes.

I understand where you are coming from, but unlike a lot of guys who follow SS and frequent this forum, I have no desire to compete in powerlifting, nor am I training for any sport. From their perspective, I can totally see why everyone's answer would be to squat, squat, squat. Honestly, I was a bit hesitant to ask this on here because I knew I would receive a bit of push from some people. Even if I was a skinny total beginner who needed to gain weight, I could see how the program should remain untouched... but I am just an average joe, who is already decently strong at upper body lifts and is not skinny by any means (230lbs) who enjoys lifting heavy while trying to build some upper-body muscle. The reason I came to this forum is because I still believe in the concept of linear progression and support Rip and you guys, but surely one does not NEED to squat to get their bench and press up, no? I am not really interested in focusing on my squats and deadlifts as much because I already have a more-than-proportionate lower body (38-inch waist) compared to my upper body (only 16-inch arms) and whenever I do squats and deads, I tend to develop the "centaur" look that I read about some SS trainees developing. My girlfriend also hates it on me lol. I know this seems stupid to many, but please try and look past the need for me to HAVE to squat heavy 3x per week. This is not JUST a numbers thing to me but also an aesthetic choice. I totally get that this is very abnormal of a question to ask on here, and some of you may not even believe me when I say what I say, but know that I am being sincere, and I came here because when it comes to programming any lift, you guys know what you're talking about.

[Alexander Rix]

What do you want? Our blessing for you to do your brilliant program?

Have you tried posting it on bodybuilding.com to see what they think?

[NCuba]

I totally agree with you guys, and I want to get back to slowly working my deadlifts and squats into my training, but would like to do it at a slower pace. Right now, my goals are more to hit a 300 bench and 200 press. Would something like wendler's 5/3/1 for my bench and press with a lower day thrown in in a more LP way be a decent alteration. Something like:

Monday:
Bench: 5/3/1
DB Shoulder Press: 3 x 8-10
DB Rows: 5 x 8
Facepulls and Abs

Wednesday:
Deadlift: 1 x 5
Squat: 2 x 8
Back Extensions
Prowler Pushes

Friday:
Press: 5/3/1
DB Floor Press: 3 x 8-10
Chins: 5 x 5
Facepulls and Abs

If you work out 3 days you should do some pressing every day. Also think that would be wise for the squats and deads. Why not set up p/bp like:

M - 4x6 bp with one top set and rest at 10% less
W - 4x6 press with one top set and rest at 5-10% less
F - 3x7 cgbp

And just run out the weight on your top set (i.e. if you can't get final nth rep of a top set one week, then the next week attempt a top set at +2.5 lb weight for a set of n-1 # of reps), and rotating rep ranges while preserving total # reps (i.e. sub in 5x5 or 3x8 for 4x6) as needed. That will probably get you to 200/300. Actually think you're pretty close already on bench, and that your press seems comparatively low. This might be due to weak legs, hips, and core, in which case getting your squat up could help you hit 200.

Easy plan for squats and deads is to alternate

A: 3x5 squats
B: 2x5 deads with second set at -10% weight

You are in control of the weight increases so can keep these moving at whatever pace you like. But I think spreading out these lower body/posterior chain exercises over all 3 days will make things go smoothly.

[Bojangles]

If you work out 3 days you should do some pressing every day. Also think that would be wise for the squats and deads. Why not set up p/bp like:

M - 4x6 bp with one top set and rest at 10% less
W - 4x6 press with one top set and rest at 5-10% less
F - 3x7 cgbp

And just run out the weight on your top set (i.e. if you can't get final nth rep of a top set one week, then the next week attempt a top set at +2.5 lb weight for a set of n-1 # of reps), and rotating rep ranges while preserving total # reps (i.e. sub in 5x5 or 3x8 for 4x6) as needed. That will probably get you to 200/300. Actually think you're pretty close already on bench, and that your press seems comparatively low. This might be due to weak legs, hips, and core, in which case getting your squat up could help you hit 200.

Easy plan for squats and deads is to alternate

A: 3x5 squats
B: 2x5 deads with second set at -10% weight

You are in control of the weight increases so can keep these moving at whatever pace you like. But I think spreading out these lower body/posterior chain exercises over all 3 days will make things go smoothly.

Thank you. I see what you are getting at and it seems to make sense. Pressing all three days makes sense, and I feel for my shoulder health I would probably throw in some face pulls and what not. I am a bit confused as to exactly how to program it. Would you care to elaborate a bit more? The way I see it, you are talking about something like this correct (and please correct me if I am wrong):

Week 1:
Monday:
Bench: 4 x 6 (with last set as 6+)
Pendlay Rows: 4 x 6
Chins: 3 x 5 weighted
Facepulls and abs: 2 x 12-15

Wednesday:
Press: 4 x 6 (last set 6+)
Deadlift: 2 x 5 (second set at -10% weight)
Pullups: 3 x 8
Back extensions: 2 x 10-12

Friday:
Close-grip Bench: 3 x 7
Pendlay Rows: 4 x 6
Chins: 3 sets AMRAP
Facepulls and abs: 2 x 12-15

Week 2:
Monday:
Bench: 4 x 6 (with last set as 6+)
Pendlay Rows: 4 x 6
Chins: 3 x 5 weighted
Facepulls and abs: 2 x 12-15

Wednesday:
Press: 4 x 6 (last set 6+)
Squats: 3 x 5
Pullups: 3 x 8
Back extensions: 2 x 10-12

Friday:
Close-grip Bench: 3 x 7
Pendlay Rows: 4 x 6
Chins: 3 sets AMRAP
Facepulls and abs: 2 x 12-15

*As I re-read this now, I feel like you meant I should to alternate squats and deadlifts (ABA, BAB) so I am doing squats twice a week one week and deadlifts twice a week another, but since I really only want to slowly introduce them back over time and not detract from my bench and press goals, I want to do it as slowly as possible (honestly, despite the valid points that were made in above posts that there is no need to take it slow with them, I am not super interested in doing them right now as per my comments above) For example, hypothetically if there was a reason I could not do squats or deads and could only do heavy prowler pushes for the time being, how would you program that?