Sacrificing squat volume and frequency for 3x5 deadlifts

[Cargotruck]

For someone who wants more time and practice with the deadlift, does this look like a sensible way to program more deadlift volume in?

Workout A
Deadlift: 3x5 (planning to eventually alternate with Power Cleans once this becomes too taxing)
Press: 3x5
Chin ups: 3x5
Dips: 3x8

Workout B
Squat: 3x5
Bench press: 3x5
Barbell row: 3x5
Barbell curl: 3x10

Every other day instead of M/W/F, except with an extra day off here and there either due to fatigue or due to traveling.

Current lifts(all 3x5):
Deadlift: 117.5kg / 259lbs
Squat: 110kg / 242lbs
Bench: 98.5kg / 217lbs
Press: 58.5kg / 129lbs
Row: 80kg / 176lbs

Been training with this exact setup for a month or so now, with a total of 2½ months of novice LP after resting and rehabbing away a chronic injury. Was messing around with PPL and such for a year before then.

One reason for this is that I really like the deadlift. I do realize this is NDTP but I'm more concerned with modifying my training to my personal liking while still keeping some resemblance to the program.

Really, I'm looking for any ideas, critique or just conversation relating to this because I think the asymmetry between the squat and deadlift volume in SS is a topic worth talking about instead of just shrugging the whole subject off with "deadlifts are hard to recover from". My main question is how long do you think 3x5 deadlifts every 4 days can be sustained with 4000 daily calories, 9 hours of sleep per night and presumably average genetics, provided that you also squat once every 4 days instead of 3 times per week? When should I start looking at power cleans, or modifying two of the deadlift sets into lighter back off sets / ramping sets? Can someone say from experience that I'm just on a path to overreaching and an early stall?

I might eventually log how everything worked out for anyone interested in not following the program in a similar way.

[Brian Goldstein]

A - if it’s working for you, who cares what anyone thinks? That said...
B - another way to skin this particular cat might include a set up like this:

Day 1- medium DL 3x4-6 (can be a variation such as paused DLs or deficit DLs)

Day 2 - light pulls - either power cleans or snatches or rows or chins - whichever you prefer.

Day 3 - Heavy DL 1x4-6.

On that you’d squat and press on each day too.

No, it’s not the novice program but you’re not doing that anyway, so, there you go.

[platypus]

You need to be able to deadlift properly to learn the power clean. Beyond that, you can just add in the cleans whenever you want.

It is possible to recover from 3x5 deadlifts and Andy Baker’s intermediate programs sometimes feature them.

As everyone on here who did the program can attest, 1x5 deadlifts work well for novices. I doubt that 5-10lb jumps per deadlift session can be improved on by adding more sets. The extra sets merely require that you settle for slower squat progress, as you have done. If you want to do it though don’t let me talk you out of it.

For the record, I finished my novice progression with 365x5 in deadlifts, and pulled 435 at a meet doing the novice program as written.

[Cargotruck]

A - if it’s working for you, who cares what anyone thinks? That said...
B - another way to skin this particular cat might include a set up like this:

Day 1- medium DL 3x4-6 (can be a variation such as paused DLs or deficit DLs)

Day 2 - light pulls - either power cleans or snatches or rows or chins - whichever you prefer.

Day 3 - Heavy DL 1x4-6.

On that you’d squat and press on each day too.

No, it’s not the novice program but you’re not doing that anyway, so, there you go.

I think something like this would work well once recovery starts getting tough, but right now I'll try to have as much frequency with heavy deadlifts and heavy squats as I can.

You do make a good point about how if something works for you, keep doing it. I think I'm just taking pre-emptive measures to avoid another stall. Stalled once on every lift so far except for bench press, but (despite being unrelated to this) I get soreness at the side of my left shoulder from them so I had to switch to dumbbells for a while. Low bar squats irritate that same area of the shoulder too unless I take a very wide grip, and while the pain doesn't seem to be getting any worse over time, I need to figure something out to be able to have a more narrow grip on squats. No trouble dropping bench press out though, from what I hear and have experienced it really is just a timebomb waiting to go off for most lifters. Press has never hurt at all, and even dips feel better.

You need to be able to deadlift properly to learn the power clean. Beyond that, you can just add in the cleans whenever you want.

It is possible to recover from 3x5 deadlifts and Andy Baker’s intermediate programs sometimes feature them.

As everyone on here who did the program can attest, 1x5 deadlifts work well for novices. I doubt that 5-10lb jumps per deadlift session can be improved on by adding more sets. The extra sets merely require that you settle for slower squat progress, as you have done. If you want to do it though don’t let me talk you out of it.

For the record, I finished my novice progression with 365x5 in deadlifts, and pulled 435 at a meet doing the novice program as written.

Deadlifting after squats for one set of five always seemed like squats are the actual driver for progress, and the deadlift, when you're already fatigued, just demonstrates the strength and keeps the movement pattern familiar. It's progress nonetheless and I don't doubt that it's been found to work optimally that way in the novice phase, but this is purely psychological for me and I'm stubborn with modifying a lot of things on that basis.

It's true that this is slower progress, but the big factor for me is that it allows the same frequency for squat and deadlift, just as between press and bench, and always gives you a brief break from the other lift for one workout. They also drive each other up at the same time instead of the squat mainly driving up the deadlift (though I do recall squat to deadlift carryover is better than vice versa?). Not having squatted for 4 days but having deadlifted for 3x5 a couple days ago is a big confidence booster in being able to hit all the reps once you get under the bar again.

One thing I should point out is that I deadlift with a narrow sumo stance, just far apart enough to get a shoulder width grip, trying to retain all the angles as close to conventional as I can. I did conventional way back when I wasted a lot of time with PPL, and eventually my lower back just started hurting and stayed that way on deadlifts despite taking a several week break from them and doing everything I could to get into a tight bottom position. With the knees pointing outwards in narrow sumo, I can get considerably more tight and it has never hurt at all. I was never fat and my mobility seems fine in other areas aside from my left shoulder, so I don't know what was up with that. Might get back to conventional eventually.

[Les Hahn]

I've used this program for special population novices that don't need to squat 3x per week.

M- Squat 3x5, Bench 3x5, + assistance
W- Deadlift 3x5, Press 3x5, + assistance
F- Squat 3x5, Bench 3x5, + assistance

You would not do an A/B rotation for this program, although you could do it for bench/press if you wanted. But you would always squat 2x per week and DL 1x per week for 3 sets of 5. It works pretty well. I guess you could rotate squat and deadlift, but I don't like the idea of only squatting 1x per week for most people. But I've gotten good results from people running it.

[Cargotruck]

I've used this program for special population novices that don't need to squat 3x per week.

M- Squat 3x5, Bench 3x5, + assistance
W- Deadlift 3x5, Press 3x5, + assistance
F- Squat 3x5, Bench 3x5, + assistance

You would not do an A/B rotation for this program, although you could do it for bench/press if you wanted. But you would always squat 2x per week and DL 1x per week for 3 sets of 5. It works pretty well. I guess you could rotate squat and deadlift, but I don't like the idea of only squatting 1x per week for most people. But I've gotten good results from people running it.

That looks like a very good template. As a matter of fact, after thinking about things and being tired of constantly testing my tolerance to volume, I decided to just switch to advanced novice as it's laid out (except the pulls are chins/deads/rows instead of chins/deads/cleans), but another option I was thinking of was basically what you just suggested; advanced novice but with 3x5 deadlifts instead of light squats and 1x5 deadlifts.

Not sure which one I'll go for, but one option is your suggestion in the following way (bench swapped for DB bench and emphasis on press due to what I think is tendinitis in my left shoulder that is aggravated by barbell benching):

M - Squat 3x5, Press 3x5, Chins 3x5
W - Deadlift 3x5, DB bench 3x8, Dips 3x8
F - Squat 3x5, Press 3x5, Rows 3x5 + 2x8 back off sets @80%

The second option would be SS advanced novice set up like this:

M - Squat 3x5, Press 3x5, Chins 3x5, Dips 3x8
W - Squat 3x5 @80% of Monday, DB bench 3x8, Deadlift 1x5
F - Squat 3x5, Press 3x5, Rows 3x5 + 2x8 back off sets @80%, Barbell curl 3x10

The first template would be more balanced in volume across the days, the second one would be more of a heavy-light-heavy. Which one do you recommend more / any problems with these setups in general?

[timelinex]

I think something like this would work well once recovery starts getting tough, but right now I'll try to have as much frequency with heavy deadlifts and heavy squats as I can.
..............
eventually my lower back just started hurting and stayed that way on deadlifts despite taking a several week break from them and doing everything I could to get into a tight bottom position. With the knees pointing outwards in narrow sumo, I can get considerably more tight and it has never hurt at all. I was never fat and my mobility seems fine in other areas aside from my left shoulder, so I don't know what was up with that. Might get back to conventional eventually.

I don't think you are hearing what some of the other people are trying to say to you as nicely as possible.

They are saying that even though your setup can still work, it most likely WON't be any more efficient at adding weight to the DL than doing the standard LP. I added 10b onto my deadlift every time I deadlifted, until right before the very end of my LP. This was with 1 set of 5 and squatting heavy 2x a week. Are you saying that you think doing 3 heavy DL sets as a novice will add 15lb a DL workout? Doubtful.

As far as I understand it, squat progress drives up the DL consistently, while the reverse isn't true. This is all while potentially being less taxing. So at a certain volume, the best way to drive up the DL might in fact be to drive up the squat versus more DL volume. So a lifter that does no deadlifts but adds 100lb on to his squats, will deadlift more than before adding that squat weight. What the others are saying is that as a novice, that tipping point is doing 1 set of 5 of DL. It's not like coaches haven't experiments and tried to see whats best. Thats why many say a women SHOULD do 3 sets of 5 of it (or 5 sets of 3). Since they HAVE experimented and have found this might work better for them.

If you back hurt from conventional it is either because you were doing it wrong OR (surprise surprise) you were doing too much volume.

Anyways, let us know how it goes. I'll be surprised if you tell me that you kept up adding more than 10LB a DL workout with your routine (not at the beginning, but well through the 300s).

What are your current deadlift numbers?

[Les Hahn]

Either template would work. But for people that want to squat 2x per week, the option of throwing a 3x5 deadlift on Wednesday does work.

Timelinex- I agree that you probably won't add more than 10# per workout. With some women I had running this template, they added 10# per week on squat (5#'s each session) and 10# on DL. Two of them (one in her 30's and one in her mid to late 40's) got up to 265 and 275 for 3 sets of 5 on deadlift before things had to get changed up. That was one run with no resets. Hell, I squat 1x per week and am still making progress. :-)

[Cargotruck]

If you back hurt from conventional it is either because you were doing it wrong OR (surprise surprise) you were doing too much volume.

Anyways, let us know how it goes. I'll be surprised if you tell me that you kept up adding more than 10LB a DL workout with your routine (not at the beginning, but well through the 300s).

What are your current deadlift numbers?

I was deadlifting 4x8 nearly twice a week when my back tweaked in the past, which was a bad move. I used to record my conventional deadlifts from a side view to see my back angle several times, but no matter how hard I tried I couldn't get the kind of flat back 95% of people seem to get, and I felt awkward and weak in that position. I've been able to conventional deadlift without pain for a fair bit of time since it was just a temporary tweak back then and nothing serious, but I went through so much frustration and futile effort to make the bottom position feel anywhere close to decent without progress that I don't think I'll waste more time with it at the moment. On narrow sumo I actually feel strong at the bottom, and the mechanics there are so close to conventional that I'm not too worried about losing any considerable benefits that the conventional might have over this style.

Back then I read an article by Greg Nuckols that certain hip structures make the lower back round if the femurs are in the way and the way to fix that is to push the legs out, which was what made me try a technique other than conventional.

Also regarding my numbers, my deadlift and squat are pretty close. The previous 3x5 I deadlifted was with 260lb, and the last couple of reps of the final set were already feeling considerably heavy. That's one of the reasons why I'm considering switching to 1x5 or at least reducing the frequency to once a week; ultimately it's hard to see longevity deadlifting 3x5 every 4 days.

[timelinex]

Either template would work. But for people that want to squat 2x per week, the option of throwing a 3x5 deadlift on Wednesday does work.

Timelinex- I agree that you probably won't add more than 10# per workout. With some women I had running this template, they added 10# per week on squat (5#'s each session) and 10# on DL. Two of them (one in her 30's and one in her mid to late 40's) got up to 265 and 275 for 3 sets of 5 on deadlift before things had to get changed up. That was one run with no resets. Hell, I squat 1x per week and am still making progress. :-)

I did a high impact sport, wakeboarding, during my LP which effected recovery and the also the squat gave me shoulder issues. So I actually ran the entire LP squatting Mon/Fri and deadlifting Wed (1x5). I know its slower than if I just did the program and nothing else in my life, but I was ok with the slightly slower progress and ultimately happy with the end result. I just finished my 5 month LP at a 425 lb DL max. So I totally get the 2x SQ and 1x DL programming. What I don't understand is either:

1. His proposed scenario where he thinks more DL & less squat will result in a faster than 10LB increase per DL session because of 3x5 DL.

2. How someone can 3x5 at the intensities required of the LP. Maybe I'm just missing something, but as soon as I hit the 300's in the DL, I would be smoked after the top set. I decided to do a backoff set after I did my 365x5 and I BARELY finished one more set at 300x5. Thats a 20% reduction. If I had to work with a weight that I could sustain 3x5, I'm guessing I would have been a solid 40LB behind on my deadlift and ultimately worse off. The 2x a week squat with 1x5 DL was enough to drive adaptation.

I did have my wife do 3x5 (and then 5x3), but women are different. They aren't as neurologically efficient as us so they just can't do a high enough intensity to wipe them out after 1 set.

This is all anecdotal evidence though as I don't have much experience training others. Considering SS is based around this doctrine (high squat volume and low DL volume), I was just assuming this is the common experience. I might be wrong.

I was deadlifting 4x8 nearly twice a week when my back tweaked in the past, which was a bad move. I used to record my conventional deadlifts from a side view to see my back angle several times, but no matter how hard I tried I couldn't get the kind of flat back 95% of people seem to get, and I felt awkward and weak in that position. I've been able to conventional deadlift without pain for a fair bit of time since it was just a temporary tweak back then and nothing serious, but I went through so much frustration and futile effort to make the bottom position feel anywhere close to decent without progress that I don't think I'll waste more time with it at the moment. On narrow sumo I actually feel strong at the bottom, and the mechanics there are so close to conventional that I'm not too worried about losing any considerable benefits that the conventional might have over this style.

Back then I read an article by Greg Nuckols that certain hip structures make the lower back round if the femurs are in the way and the way to fix that is to push the legs out, which was what made me try a technique other than conventional.

Also regarding my numbers, my deadlift and squat are pretty close. The previous 3x5 I deadlifted was with 260lb, and the last couple of reps of the final set were already feeling considerably heavy. That's one of the reasons why I'm considering switching to 1x5 or at least reducing the frequency to once a week; ultimately it's hard to see longevity deadlifting 3x5 every 4 days.

Do you have poor flexibility and mobility? I did too (still do). I'm just now able to start the bottom of my DL in a mostly flat bottom position. I worked through it in a suboptimal position. What helped me is I did RDL's right before my DL. These bad boys stretch you out like nothing else. Then I would take off my shoes (brings you an inch closer to the bar). Lastly I had to go a bit froggy in my stance which allowed more knee bend. After all this I could get a kinda mostly flat bottom position if I try as hard as I can. It sucked. For that matter, it still sucks. But it just sucks a little less nowdays. I look forward to the day when it stops sucking and I can just focus on doing the weight. But till then, whats the other option? Not train?

But fighting through it is a personal choice. Thousands of people do Sumo instead of Conventional and they still get big and strong. So I don't think it's the biggest deal if you decide to go that route.

As for your last paragraph.... Thats kind of my point. It sounds like you were doing 3x5 during the "easy" part of your LP, which is totally reasonable to do. But you just dont need that extra volume to drive adaptation at that point. At that "easy" level its almost quite literally just wasted time and effort. On the other hand, when you could benefit from more volume (mid 300s?) it is exactly when the weight is so hard that you would be totally wiped after doing 1 heavy set and couldn't do 2 more anyways. The intermediate programs that do sets across of DL do so at a much lower intensity. While the novice LP is based on doing almost maximal intensities, and for good reason. If intermediates could stick to just raising weight and milking the high intensity train, they would. It's the most efficient gains.

Do you see what I'm trying to say?