late novice press question

[hostile]

I'm at a point where I need to make a plan for prolonging my LP on the press. If I use the 3x3 method after stalling at 3x5 at 150 pounds, then the conventional wisdom says that I should already be able to press +10% in 3x3, so 165 pounds. Obviously you're supposed to work up in manageable chunks, but if I do that and my press stalls at or around 165, then that means that the 3x3 modification failed and I didn't get any stronger, right?

[Dalton Clark]

I would be wary of using percentages in calculating your numbers. It isn't always clear cut. But if we assume that the 10% rule does hold true for you, then we could come to the reasonable conclusion that you did not stimulate any additional adaptation from switching to 3 sets of 3. This can either be because you didn't recover or the stress was insufficient to drive another adaptation. Many SSCs will tell you that reducing the volume is not what you need on the pressing movements when you are getting towards the end of your LP. Additional volume tends to drive progress in this situation.

[Brian Goldstein]

Not an SSC, but the “volume drives up presses” has been my experience too. The plan of attack that I’ve seen recommended is actually a rep progression; the first time you’d attempt a weight you might do 5 sets of 3, the next time 3-5 sets of 5s with the same weight. If that’s successful, you go up the next time,at 5 sets of 3, and so on.

[hostile]

Yeah I've gotten the sense that the 3x3 method seems to have fallen out of favor on this forum at least, which is somewhat surprising because it's recommended for late-novice pressing in practical programming.

Brian the model you detailed sounds sensible, but it doesn't really drive progress faster than a TM-style template with a light day and an intensity day, right?

[Dalton Clark]

While milking the novice progression, you try to maintain the 48 hour recovery window. While the rep progression might work, it is still slowing progress down more than necessary. I'm also not an SSC but back-off sets are probably a good way of increasing volume. So going to a top-set and 3 back-off sets at 90-95%. This also builds nicely into a TM style volume day.

[Brian Goldstein]

Brian the model you detailed sounds sensible, but it doesn't really drive progress faster than a TM-style template with a light day and an intensity day, right?

It's a good question. let's run a couple of scenarios and compare numbers and you can decide for yourself what's best:

Control: adding 2.5 pounds each time you press - 3x/2 weeks (A-B-A, B-A-B).
1: 152.5x5x3 = 2287.5 pounds, 15 reps
2: 155x5x3 = 2325 pounds, 15 reps
3: 157.5x5x3 = 2362.5 pounds, 15 reps
6975 pounds/45 reps = 155 average.
157.5 -150 = 7.5 pounds improvement.

Scenario 2: Rep Progression. First time with a new weight 5 sets of 3, next time 3 sets of 5. add 2.5 pounds if 3 sets of 5 successful
1: 152.5x3x5 = 2287.5 pounds / 15 reps
2: 152.5x5x3 = 2287.5 pounds / 15 reps
3: 155x3x5 = 2325 pounds /15 reps

6900 pounds / 45 reps = 153.33 average

5 pound improvement

Scenario 3: 1 top set, 3 back off sets at 90%, adding 2.5 pounds for successful top set
1: 152.5x5, 137x5x3 762.5 + 2055 = 2817.5/ 20 reps
2: 155x5, 139.5x5x3 775 + 2092.5 = 2867.5/20 reps
3: 157.5x5, 141.5x5x3 787.5 + 2126.25 = 2913.75 /20 reps

8598.75/60 reps = 143.3125 average

7.5 pound improvement

scenario 4: TM (as written in the article on this site, 3 days/week, still 2.5 pound progress per ID)
VD = 5x5x90% of best set of 5 - in this case 150 - = 135x5x5 = 3375/25 reps
ID = 152.5x5 = 762.5/5 reps (you're going to have to add up w/u sets if you want that, this is just an illustration)
LD = 152.5*80% = 122x5x3 = 1830/15

1830+ 762.5 + 3375 = 5967.5 /45 reps = 132.611 average

2.5 pound improvement.

I think you can see for yourself what makes the most sense in your situation. Good lifting to you.

[Satch12879]

Just for some context:

Andy Baker talks about 3x3 and says that's it's really a last ditch effort to milk those last drops out of your novice pressing. He has said that it probably won't last very long at all.

For late late novices, Reynolds programs 5x3 on presses to keep the volume/tonage consistent with 3x5.

Wolf et al. recommend 1x5 plus two backoff sets of 5 at 90-95% or so.

[Royce Nichols]

Just for some context:

Andy Baker talks about 3x3 and says that's it's really a last ditch effort to milk those last drops out of your novice pressing. He has said that it probably won't last very long at all.

For late late novices, Reynolds programs 5x3 on presses to keep the volume/tonage consistent with 3x5.

Wolf et al. recommend 1x5 plus two backoff sets of 5 at 90-95% or so.

Wolf, M., Reynolds, M. Rippetoe, M. (2017) Elucidating appropriate volume for overhead presses in novice adolescent and middle aged males: A case study on how to get swoll as fuck and to extend your upper body gains on linear progression. Journal of Gainzzzz. Vol. 1. epub ahead of print.

[hostile]

Thanks for the help guys, I didn't really know there was this much consensus about the total tonnage model