Bench is stalling

[OZ-USF-UFGator]

The primary reason - in my opinion - for not simply doing a fourth set after pressing would be to preserve the traditional 48 hour recovery window. If a trainee can't recovery and adapt from 3 heavy sets of 5 within 48 hours, but we suspect they are still a novice, then there must be something that they can recovery and adapt to within 48 hours while still preserving linear increases in strength. If we spread the stress out over 3 days, the trainee is now accumulating stress over two separate bouts and the adaptation cycle is now up to 4 or 5 days. In other words, they aren't providing a stress, recovering, and adapting inside of 48 hours. There is also some concern that the 3 sets could be almost enough to stimulate an adaptation response but not quite. Let's say we get 90% of the way there. The trainee now rests for 48 hours which recovers this down to say 20%. On overhead day, then add another set of bench which puts them to say 90% again. This is kind of the problem. Hopefully it makes some kind of sense.

I guess the gist of it is that this approach is moving more towards a weekly programming methodology which complicates things when we could just do four sets. However, you are onto something which is that Starting Strength only benches/presses 1.5 per week each on average which will eventually be insufficient. This is why Andy Baker recommends pressing and benching twice a week each sooner than you think is necessary. Of course, this requires that the trainee really understands how to tinker with intensity and volume to get this right. I need coffee. Too early for this long of post.

This is a good explanation but it hinges on the assumption that recovery is the issue and not detraining or lack of volume. In the novice SS model a person goes 5 days without bench pressing every other week. For some, this could be a lack of volume or slight detraining that can lead to spinning wheels. 1 single work set done on press days could address both of these issues.

The difference between your and my perspective is that you are thinking lack of recovery and I'm thinking mild detraining and insufficient volume.


Probably best strategy to address one , check it off the list and if not success, address the other. Just my opinion

[DeanT]

Why are we over complicating this? The steps forward are simple:
1) Reset (I personally would do a 15% reset to give you time to dial in your form changes)
2) Clean up form
3) Increase the weight each workout by 2.5 lbs
4) Surpass 170 for 3x5 and keep going until you miss reps
5) Start researching what type of intermediate programming you want to move your bench to the next time you get stuck.

[Dalton Clark]

Because it is very often that someone is able to recover from a slightly modified stress and continue a novice progression (but not at 3x5) for a long time before intermediate programming is required. The steps are actually:

1) Clean up form while trying to progress
2) reset and work on form
3) increase the weight by 2.5 lbs and keep cleaning up form
4) Surpass 170 for 3x5 if you can and keep going until you miss reps, keep working on form
5) When progress stalls, ask the 3 questions. . . .and video to make sure your form is good.
6) if you answered the 3 questions properly, go to 1 top set and 3 back-offs at 95%.
7) Add 2.5 pounds per workout and keep working on form
8) When you stall on this, and if recovery isn't an issue, add a second bench day for the week and/or go to triples

This is why there is an advanced novice phase described in detail. The novice 3x5 will not be sufficient forever and changing the stress is appropriate. The program gets more complicated for someone who has been appropriately following the 3x5 template. Again, as long as someone is able to recover and adapt to some form of stress within 48 hours, they are a novice. Thus, they should be on novice programming. Your plan assumes that someone who is incapable of adding weight to the bar for 3 sets of 5 across is an intermediate. This is false. I was incapable of adding weight to my 190 pound bench for 3 sets of 5 across. I switched to 1 top set and 3 back-offs at 95%. Guess what? I've resumed steady workout-to-workout progress. This is why it is extremely important that every individual reads Practical Programming for Strength Training where things like this are addressed. Your advice has resulted in a large number of individuals going to intermediate programming when a modified novice one would have done much better at sustaining progress.

[OZ-USF-UFGator]

Because it is very often that someone is able to recover from a slightly modified stress and continue a novice progression (but not at 3x5) for a long time before intermediate programming is required. The steps are actually:

1) Clean up form while trying to progress
2) reset and work on form
3) increase the weight by 2.5 lbs and keep cleaning up form
4) Surpass 170 for 3x5 if you can and keep going until you miss reps, keep working on form
5) When progress stalls, ask the 3 questions. . . .and video to make sure your form is good.
6) if you answered the 3 questions properly, go to 1 top set and 3 back-offs at 95%.
7) Add 2.5 pounds per workout and keep working on form
8) When you stall on this, and if recovery isn't an issue, add a second bench day for the week and/or go to triples

This is why there is an advanced novice phase described in detail. The novice 3x5 will not be sufficient forever and changing the stress is appropriate. The program gets more complicated for someone who has been appropriately following the 3x5 template. Again, as long as someone is able to recover and adapt to some form of stress within 48 hours, they are a novice. Thus, they should be on novice programming. Your plan assumes that someone who is incapable of adding weight to the bar for 3 sets of 5 across is an intermediate. This is false. I was incapable of adding weight to my 190 pound bench for 3 sets of 5 across. I switched to 1 top set and 3 back-offs at 95%. Guess what? I've resumed steady workout-to-workout progress. This is why it is extremely important that every individual reads Practical Programming for Strength Training where things like this are addressed. Your advice has resulted in a large number of individuals going to intermediate programming when a modified novice one would have done much better at sustaining progress.

You're very good at reading a book and regurgitating the material in a way that makes it seem that it is dogmatic.

However, just because adding in a set of bench on press day isn't prescribed to a late novice on PP, doesn't mean that it will fuck up anyone's progress, lifting or life. In fact, it could be better because after 2 days of rest, the extra set could likely be done a slightly higher intensity than the previous work set. And one would not have to wait 5 days between bench sessions, which MAY for some people, be too long of a break to optimally drive progress. But that is something a person will have to either experiment with him/her self or hire a coach to figure out for that person. Just because this technique isn't "your" way and just because it isn't "in the book" doesn't make it "bad".

[Dalton Clark]

You're very good at reading a book and regurgitating the material in a way that makes it seem that it is dogmatic.

However, just because adding in a set of bench on press day isn't prescribed to a late novice on PP, doesn't mean that it will fuck up anyone's progress, lifting or life. In fact, it could be better because after 2 days of rest, the extra set could likely be done a slightly higher intensity than the previous work set. And one would not have to wait 5 days between bench sessions, which MAY for some people, be too long of a break to optimally drive progress. But that is something a person will have to either experiment with him/her self or hire a coach to figure out for that person. Just because this technique isn't "your" way and just because it isn't "in the book" doesn't make it "bad".

I've already expressed in a previous post that I support benching and pressing twice per week. I just stopped at step number 8 because I can't count any higher. I said, "However, you are onto something which is that Starting Strength only benches/presses 1.5 per week each on average which will eventually be insufficient. This is why Andy Baker recommends pressing and benching twice a week each sooner than you think is necessary". Can you please not argue with me when we actually agree? Thanks.

I also don't base this off of reading the damn book. I base this off of being an advanced novice who has made these adjustments. Christ alive, you guys need to realize that other people have brains and can think for themselves AND agree with Rippetoe most of the time.

[A Schenck]

Can you please not argue with me when we actually agree? Thanks.

I also don't base this off of reading the damn book. I base this off of being an advanced novice who has made these adjustments. Christ alive, you guys need to realize that other people have brains and can think for themselves AND agree with Rippetoe most of the time.

Nah... OZ is not capable of this. He is the king of making a drive-by post insulting someone or trying to argue without ever actually supporting his position.

[OZ-USF-UFGator]

Nah... OZ is not capable of this. He is the king of making a drive-by post insulting someone or trying to argue without ever actually supporting his position.

kind of like what you just did?

[OZ-USF-UFGator]

I've already expressed in a previous post that I support benching and pressing twice per week. I just stopped at step number 8 because I can't count any higher. I said, "However, you are onto something which is that Starting Strength only benches/presses 1.5 per week each on average which will eventually be insufficient. This is why Andy Baker recommends pressing and benching twice a week each sooner than you think is necessary". Can you please not argue with me when we actually agree? Thanks.

I also don't base this off of reading the damn book. I base this off of being an advanced novice who has made these adjustments. Christ alive, you guys need to realize that other people have brains and can think for themselves AND agree with Rippetoe most of the time.

I guess what you didn't take into account was that the OP already reset his bench, reached the same spot and stalled again...even after assuring his intra set resting was adequate. It is reasonable, given the information provided that either volume is lacking, or that LP is at the end. Adding volume is not a crazy idea at this point. Your step #5 to 6 is written as dogmatic and you make the statement that everypone must read PP by rippetoe.

[OZ-USF-UFGator]

This is why it is extremely important that every individual reads Practical Programming for Strength Training where things like this are addressed. Your advice has resulted in a large number of individuals going to intermediate programming when a modified novice one would have done much better at sustaining progress.

You make this quote and when I defend my position, you accuse me of arguing with you when you agree with me and act frustrated that I point out that you don't think beyond the book?

Seems legit.

[A Schenck]

Why not start simple. Do 1 set of 5 bench with your next or previous bench weight in overhead press day before you leave the gym.

It is reasonable, given the information provided that either volume is lacking, or that LP is at the end.

Interesting. So you want to solve the lack of volume by dropping sets?

...when I defend my position...

The OP has given a fairly complete training history, answered the 3 questions, and given a form check video. At this point you are fighting with Dalton over the recommendation that the OP go to a top set of 5 with back-off sets before (not instead of) adding volume or frequency. Lets move away from arguing about who is being dogmatic or not thinking outside the book and clarify:

What is your primary concern with the 1x5 with 2x5 @ 95% plan?