Cleans vs. Rows/Chins

[Kenneth]

Hi forum, I am hoping to find some guidance regarding incorporating cleans or rows/chins into my SSLP program. From reading it seems that some people are for cleans and others are for rows/chins - I am not sure what direction to go. I have been only doing the program for 2 weeks and have not yet transitioned to the next phase where the clean (or rows/chins) is incorporated.

I am 39 years old, 6'1 and 190lbs (up from 185 when I started this program 2 weeks ago) with no significant injuries. I feel as though I can still move fairly well but have read that at "my age" I should avoid the clean. I plan on continuing with the SSLP for awhile but would like to make the right programming decision at the beginning. I would hate to start cleans for 6 months only to find out rows/chins were the way to go - or vice versa.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Ken

[Brian Goldstein]

Just pick one for now and replace the “slot” where power cleans would reside.

[bbuszard]

This really isn't an either/or proposition. Without some pre-existing condition you'll probably be fine with power-cleans. I did them until last year and only quit last year (at the age of 48) because they weren't keeping pace with my slow pulls; despite crappy anthropometry I never had an injury problem. If you're still open to suggestions then I'd say follow the program as written. It will have you doing both cleans and power-cleans soon enough and you can see for yourself if the cleans plateau prematurely.

Cleans are fun! Why not give them a try?

[Meshuggah]

Proper strength training is about doing things you need to do, and those things are rarely fun.

[MBasic]

Thirded...just do the Emperor's Rows.

If you want to learn the power cleans, it will be "funner" with heavy weights after your LP is over...when your stronger....

And once an intermediate, you'll have more slots available to fuck around with these.

[bbuszard]

I can see that I've stepped into some long-running debate here. I can only reiterate that found the power-cleans useful, enjoyable, and no threat to my joints or my recovery, and I'm somewhat older than the original poster (39 really isn't very old). I've also done rows and chins at various stages and agree that they're very useful.

As to whether you should listen to me, well of course not. But on my side of the argument you have (at least) Rippetoe and Feigenbaum. The former wrote the program you are using and is unequivocal in recommending cleans for those who can do them; the latter is a little more balanced in his recommendation: "... I recommend doing the clean. It's pretty fun, the fatigue is low relative to the potential benefits, and I think it's reasonable to put it in periodically. It was pretty cool to take my power clean from 120 to 150kg with a few months of practice. Trap GainzZz were strong too! If you find you can't power clean or snatch due to any host of reasons that's okay, but give it a college try first."

[Meshuggah]

The Power Clean has more applications in Olympic Lifting than Powerlifting. There are exercises giving a better return of strength in relation to the amount of time, energy, and number of repetitions put in. For Trap Gains, Snatch Grip Deadlifts trump power cleans any day of the week.

[bbuszard]

The Power Clean has more applications in Olympic Lifting than Powerlifting.

Agreed, but the original poster said nothing about powerlifting. He's 2 weeks into his linear progression and such an early focus on one specialization would be misguided.

As for "because guru," appeal to authority is an easy whipping horse in debate but is nonetheless sometimes appropriate. I recognize that my current 1250 total is at most a modest accomplishment; nor am I a coach. I don't have nearly the experience or lifting resume to draw upon that Rip and Drs. Sully and Feigenbaum do, and so I take their recommendations seriously. What they advise has been borne out in my limited experience. Perhaps your own numbers and experience trumps theirs. Perhaps you have an iron-clad alternate analysis developed through decades of experience. I can make no such claim.

And as for "because fun," absolutely. Training need not be a miserable slog.

[poser]

I use Power Cleans and Power Snatches in my programming at 42 and don't anticipate dropping either of them for the foreseeable future. Obviously there are different schools of thought on this, but, at the end of the day, it seems to be a individual programming decision as to which will benefit you more, training goal dependent and whether or not athletic performance in or outside of the gym are relevant factors.

One of my training partners has made incredible progress on the TM (as a 24 year old should) and despite having done power Cleans in high school and despite being a somewhat serious hockey player, he has no interest in them at all and gets his supplemental pulling volume from paused deadlifts and makes textbook progress.

Personally, I do not find that PCs or PSs drive my deadlift very much if at all at this point. They may have early on, but not anymore and my PC worksets are at greater than 50% of my DL worksets. I do find tangible benefits of athleticism associated with both movements to be of benefit in athletic performance outside of the gym, which is my principal goal anyway, but I also have to tack on some additional pulling volume to make DL progress which is taxing and time consuming.

I do tend to agree with Meshuggah that your DL itself may benefit more in the long run (as well as return on your time investment) from other pulling variations.

[Meshuggah]

Agreed, but the original poster said nothing about powerlifting. He's 2 weeks into his linear progression and such an early focus on one specialization would be misguided.

As for "because guru," appeal to authority is an easy whipping horse in debate but is nonetheless sometimes appropriate. I recognize that my current 1250 total is at most a modest accomplishment; nor am I a coach. I don't have nearly the experience or lifting resume to draw upon that Rip and Drs. Sully and Feigenbaum do, and so I take their recommendations seriously. What they advise has been borne out in my limited experience. Perhaps your own numbers and experience trumps theirs. Perhaps you have an iron-clad alternate analysis developed through decades of experience. I can make no such claim.

And as for "because fun," absolutely. Training need not be a miserable slog.

SS is much more similar to Powerlifting than Olympic Lifting.

Stay Strong & Have Fun.